Israel/Palestine

[ousdahl]

sooooo


just in case this thread isn't qrazy enough yet....



what's this about how Israel was warned by Egypt?

[ousdahl]

good take from they/them:


Palestinians are at serious risk of genocide.

We must hold our grief and pain for those killed and injured in Israel alongside our demand that Israel end its occupation of Palestine and its relentless violence against Palestinian people.

Defending the human rights and self-determination of Palestinian people is not a dismissal of the pain, suffering, and trauma of the Israelis who died, were injured, or lost loved ones in the recent Hamas attack. It is not a dismissal of the trauma that the Jewish people have endured.

There are many, many Jewish writers and organizers who have long been calling for an end to apartheid and an end to the use of Jewish trauma to justify traumatizing Palestinians.

Openly calling for an end to apartheid and a cease fire to prevent the genocide of Palestinians is a stance that honors the legacy of Jewish struggle against genocide, dehumanization, and racism.



Now, quick!

somebody call me evil, a liar, a bitch, Goebbels, a holocaust denier wait I mean using the same rhetoric as a holocaust denier, a Hamas supporter, pro-Putin, and literally the same as randy!

[KUTradition]

https://www.theatlantic.com/internation ... ap/675628/


It’s a trap. Hamas’s ruthless and spectacular attack on southern Israel last Saturday was many things: an atrocity, a display of militant ingenuity, and a demonstration of the weakness of Israeli intelligence and defenses. Israel and the Palestinians have a long history of brutality against each other, but the Hamas killing spree outdoes anything since Israeli-controlled Christian militias massacred unarmed Palestinian refugees in the Sabra and Shatila refugee camps outside of Beirut in 1982. It may even have been the single most brutal act by either side in the 100-year-old conflict. But above all, it was intended as a trap—one that Israel appears about to fall into.

Hamas’s leaders and their Iranian backers have a conscious strategy. Like almost all other acts of spectacularly bloodthirsty terrorism, Hamas’s assault on southern Israel was designed to provoke an emotional and equally or even more outrageous response by the targeted society. Hamas and Iran are attempting to goad the Israelis into Gaza for a prolonged confrontation—which is to say that the intended effect is precisely the ground assault Israel is now preparing in order to root out and destroy Hamas as an organization, kill its cadres and leadership, and destroy as much of its infrastructure and equipment as possible.
…
Hamas evidently decided to destroy that status quo, which was no longer serving its interests. The Islamist group also hopes to seize control of the Palestinian national movement from its secular Fatah rivals, who dominate the Palestinian Authority and, more important, the Palestine Liberation Organization, which is the internationally recognized representative of the Palestinian people. Hamas has never been a part of the PLO, in large measure because it is unwilling to accept the PLO’s treaty agreements with Israel. The most notable among these is the Oslo Accords, which included recognition of Israel by Palestinians but no Israeli recognition of a Palestinian state or a Palestinian right to statehood.
…
Hamas is attempting to seal the fate of Fatah, and maneuver to eventually take over the PLO and its international diplomatic presence, including United Nations observer-state status and embassies around the world. By taking the battle directly into Israel, claiming to be defending Muslim holy places in Jerusalem by branding the attack the “Al-Aqsa Deluge,” and hopefully breaking the Israeli siege of Gaza, Hamas seeks to belittle Fatah and demonstrate the primacy of its policy of unrestrained armed struggle over the PLO’s careful diplomacy.

Moreover, Hamas and its Iranian patrons want to block the diplomatic-normalization agreement that the United States has been brokering between Israel and Saudi Arabia. Such a deal poses a danger to Hamas because the benefits of its “significant Palestinian component” would have accrued to Fatah in the West Bank, at Hamas’s expense. For Iran, the agreement would be a major strategic setback. Should Israel, the most potent U.S. military partner in the region, and Saudi Arabia, Washington’s most financially powerful and religiously influential one, normalize and build cooperation, Tehran would face an integrated pro-American camp. American partners, including the UAE, Bahrain, Egypt, and Jordan, would effectively ring the Arabian Peninsula, securing control of the Red Sea, the Arabian Sea, and the Persian Gulf through their three crucial maritime choke points: the Suez Canal, the Bab el-Mandab Strait, and the Straits of Hormuz. Saudi-Israeli normalization would largely block Iran’s regional aspirations in the short run and Chinese ambitions in the more distant future.
…
Hamas and Iran hope that Israel will refuse to return to the status quo ante and will instead institute a prolonged ground occupation of Gaza, declaring that Hamas can no longer be allowed to pose such a threat. But Gaza, they trust, will be a slaughterhouse for Israeli soldiers, both during the immediate incursion and over time as the anticipated insurgency gains its footing.

Israel’s apparent eagerness to fall into this trap is understandable, and indeed predictable, which is why Hamas was confident in laying it. Outrageous overreach by terrorists typically aims to provoke overreach. Washington and other friends of Israel who are now seized with sympathy should immediately caution Israel not to make this blunder. If Israel instead exercises restraint, however difficult doing so might be both politically and emotionally, it can thwart the goals of Hamas and its Iranian sponsors. Restraint would go a long way toward ensuring that the diplomatic opening with Saudi Arabia continues to move forward, dealing a major blow to local revisionist powers, such as Iran, and global ones, such as China and Russia, that wish to supplant a rules-based order with one based on “Might makes right.”

Unfortunately, in the efforts to eliminate Hamas, which cannot be done by force, and to ensure that such a threat can never be allowed to reemerge, which is equally impossible so long as the occupation continues, Israel seems ready to jump right into the briar patch.

[mjl2]

Israel is in a horrible, horrible position.

First and foremost is the Israeli lives being affected right now. My friends have been in bunkers all day and are frightened. As a percentage of the population, it's equivalent already to 9/11.

Then there's the global political position. They're fucked no matter what they do.

Israel is always in a terrible position, unfortunately.

Hamas' brutality in this case, though, gives Israel more leeway, I think.

Curious what MbS is saying to Netanyahu behind the scenes.

I wish I shared your optimism. I think this would have been true up to 20ish years ago, but I don't have much faith in the world to act sanely when the images start coming out of Gaza.

Plus, back to the first point of the human situation - there are going to be a lot of dead Palestinian kids that had no part in this.

I think we're already here, and they're just getting started.

[ousdahl]

France bans pro-Palestinian protests

[KUTradition]

hamas urging civilians to stay in northern gaza

yeah, they’ve totally got the average Palestinian’s safety and well-being at heart

[ousdahl]

I think the concern for is how unlikely it is Palestinians will ever be able to return.

(I mean, just imagine the reaction if Zelensky came out and said, "for the safety and well-being of the Ukrainian people, let's just go ahead and acquiesce to Putin's aggression." but, yeah yeah yeah, that situation is like sooo different)

and I don't mean to condone a thing about Hamas, so spare me that bullshit. but it seems awful gaslighty to keep pointing to how Hamas doesn't have Palestianian safety and well-being at heart, as if to distract from the fact Israel is and has been committing a straight up ethnic cleansing.

besides, if Palestinians ARE supposed to evacuate, where exactly are they supposed to go?

Gaza is enclosed by walls, the borders are surrounded by troops, the entry/exit points are closed (with Israel currently bombing the fuck out of the exit point on the Egyptian side, not to mention indiscriminately bombing the fuck out of Gaza at large), there's no humanitarian corridors, power and communications infrastructure and water and food supplies cut off, and they're expected to leave on 24 hours notice. What are they supposed to do here?

[ousdahl]

right on cue:

Gazans reporting being attacked by Israeli forces along the roads from the north to the south while attempting to evacuate

but since that's not reported in western media, let's just assume it's more Putin propaganda, shall we

[MICHHAWK]

this is a war, right. so they better be in it to win it. because those radical mooslimbs are.

they should play "just as fair" as those radical mooslimbs.

[jfish26]

I think the concern for is how unlikely it is Palestinians will ever be able to return.

(I mean, just imagine the reaction if Zelensky came out and said, "for the safety and well-being of the Ukrainian people, let's just go ahead and acquiesce to Putin's aggression." but, yeah yeah yeah, that situation is like sooo different)

and I don't mean to condone a thing about Hamas, so spare me that bullshit. but it seems awful gaslighty to keep pointing to how Hamas doesn't have Palestianian safety and well-being at heart, as if to distract from the fact Israel is and has been committing a straight up ethnic cleansing.

besides, if Palestinians ARE supposed to evacuate, where exactly are they supposed to go?

Gaza is enclosed by walls, the borders are surrounded by troops, the entry/exit points are closed (with Israel currently bombing the fuck out of the exit point on the Egyptian side, not to mention indiscriminately bombing the fuck out of Gaza at large), there's no humanitarian corridors, power and communications infrastructure and water and food supplies cut off, and they're expected to leave on 24 hours notice. What are they supposed to do here?

My two cents - you really should stop comparing this to Ukraine/Russia, for any reason.

One penny of those two cents, the situations are just fundamentally different at every level below the very surface. There just aren't a lot of commonalities, other than bullets and bodies.

Second penny, you really have not covered yourself in glory on the Ukraine/Russia stuff, and it would just be better if you let that stuff live in its own thread rather than mix the issues. For example, and of course I can speak only for myself, but it's very hard to take you seriously when you want to do the "very fine people on both sides" thing on Israel/Hamas when I am constantly reminded that you find Putin's actions at least somewhat justified.

[ousdahl]

Jesus fucking Christ!

Fish, you're a bigger person than this. Please, be a bigger person than this!

you LITERALLY just quoted "I don't mean to condone a thing about Hamas" and tried to spin it into "very fine people on both sides." That, like you're doubling down once again on the pro-Putin bullshit, is just more shameless gaslighting. That's it! It's hard to take YOU seriously here.

now let me once again condemn Putin, and condemn Hamas for you too.

and, again, PLEASE be bigger than this.

[jfish26]

Jesus fucking Christ!

Fish, you're a bigger person than this. Please, be a bigger person than this!

you LITERALLY just quoted "I don't mean to condone a thing about Hamas" and tried to spin it into "very fine people on both sides." That, like you're doubling down once again on the pro-Putin bullshit, is just more shameless gaslighting. That's it! It's hard to take YOU seriously here.

now let me once again condemn Putin, and condemn Hamas for you too.

and, again, PLEASE be bigger than this.

This is my point exactly.

The moral right/wrong of the situation is significantly more complicated in Israel/Hamas than in Ukraine/Russia. In my opinion, you could copy/paste "FUCK PUTIN" one thousand times, ten thousand times, and it will continue to mean nothing so long as you continue to parrot silly Putin talking points that serve to let him and Russia off the hook for what simply IS a unilateral war of aggression.

So - like I said - it would be a LOT better if you simply stopped comparing these situations. There is limited value to ANY comparisons between the situations, and in your case all you're doing is bringing all of your Ukraine baggage back to the front.

[twocoach]

Jesus fucking Christ!

Fish, you're a bigger person than this. Please, be a bigger person than this!

you LITERALLY just quoted "I don't mean to condone a thing about Hamas" and tried to spin it into "very fine people on both sides." That, like you're doubling down once again on the pro-Putin bullshit, is just more shameless gaslighting. That's it! It's hard to take YOU seriously here.

now let me once again condemn Putin, and condemn Hamas for you too.

and, again, PLEASE be bigger than this.

Some people just aren't going to allow any questions be asked of the behavior of Israel in respect to this conflict at this time. Just recognize it and steer clear if you don't want to keep getting lit up.

[KUTradition]

i don’t think that’s true at all

[jfish26]

Jesus fucking Christ!

Fish, you're a bigger person than this. Please, be a bigger person than this!

you LITERALLY just quoted "I don't mean to condone a thing about Hamas" and tried to spin it into "very fine people on both sides." That, like you're doubling down once again on the pro-Putin bullshit, is just more shameless gaslighting. That's it! It's hard to take YOU seriously here.

now let me once again condemn Putin, and condemn Hamas for you too.

and, again, PLEASE be bigger than this.

Some people just aren't going to allow any questions be asked of the behavior of Israel in respect to this conflict at this time. Just recognize it and steer clear if you don't want to keep getting lit up.

Of course this is the opposite of what I'm saying. Israel/Gaza/Palestinians/Hamas/Hezbollah/Iran/Russia is a much much much murkier and thornier situation than Ukraine/Russia, in almost every respect. But, in my opinion, someone who wants to be taken seriously in discussing Israel etc should not constantly remind us that he holds Ukraine responsible, at least in some way or part, for Putin's war of aggression.

[twocoach]

Jesus fucking Christ!

Fish, you're a bigger person than this. Please, be a bigger person than this!

you LITERALLY just quoted "I don't mean to condone a thing about Hamas" and tried to spin it into "very fine people on both sides." That, like you're doubling down once again on the pro-Putin bullshit, is just more shameless gaslighting. That's it! It's hard to take YOU seriously here.

now let me once again condemn Putin, and condemn Hamas for you too.

and, again, PLEASE be bigger than this.

Some people just aren't going to allow any questions be asked of the behavior of Israel in respect to this conflict at this time. Just recognize it and steer clear if you don't want to keep getting lit up.

Of course this is the opposite of what I'm saying. Israel/Gaza/Palestinians/Hamas/Hezbollah/Iran/Russia is a much much much murkier and thornier situation than Ukraine/Russia, in almost every respect. But, in my opinion, someone who wants to be taken seriously in discussing Israel etc should not constantly remind us that he holds Ukraine responsible, at least in some way or part, for Putin's war of aggression.

Just feels like Ousdahl can't resist dragging the Ukraine convo here because he thinks it helps justify the whipping he is taking in that thread. It's a dumb move and guaranteed to accomplish nothing but cause more argument and conflict. But he keeps doing it because he just can't stop, just like everywhere else where he can't walk away from it.

The two conflicts have little similarity other than that the Western World seems to feel that the occasionally questionable, immoral actions in their response to being attacked are comparatively glossed over for the people who were initially attacked.

[DCHawk1]

I think the concern for is how unlikely it is Palestinians will ever be able to return.

LOL

[ousdahl]

I think the concern for is how unlikely it is Palestinians will ever be able to return.

LOL

care to elaborate?

(oh, and ps bro, you sound even more butt-chug drunk off war machine propaganda right now than Sparko on Ukrai...uh, that other war that shall not be named in this thread...)

[ousdahl]

Jesus fucking Christ!

Fish, you're a bigger person than this. Please, be a bigger person than this!

you LITERALLY just quoted "I don't mean to condone a thing about Hamas" and tried to spin it into "very fine people on both sides." That, like you're doubling down once again on the pro-Putin bullshit, is just more shameless gaslighting. That's it! It's hard to take YOU seriously here.

now let me once again condemn Putin, and condemn Hamas for you too.

and, again, PLEASE be bigger than this.

This is my point exactly.

The moral right/wrong of the situation is significantly more complicated in Israel/Hamas than in Ukraine/Russia. In my opinion, you could copy/paste "FUCK PUTIN" one thousand times, ten thousand times, and it will continue to mean nothing so long as you continue to parrot silly Putin talking points that serve to let him and Russia off the hook for what simply IS a unilateral war of aggression.

So - like I said - it would be a LOT better if you simply stopped comparing these situations. There is limited value to ANY comparisons between the situations, and in your case all you're doing is bringing all of your Ukraine baggage back to the front.

if you really wanna continue beating the dead horse of Russia/Ukraine, you know I'm willing, but perhaps we should at least take it to the other thread if we must.

let's try to stay on topic here in the meantime:

Yes, the Hamas terrorist attack is just that, a terrorist attack, and should be condemned, and met with a response.

so what do you think is an appropriate response, particularly by Israel? Is the current response by Israel here appropriate?

(since you kinda dodged that question yesterday...)

[DCHawk1]

(oh, and ps bro, you sound even more butt-chug drunk off war machine propaganda right now than Sparko on Ukrai...uh, that other war that shall not be named in this thread...)

I don't believe I've said anything about what strategy Israel should employ, about whom they should fight, how many deaths are acceptable, etc.

But then, you do you.