Let’s have a war!

[Deleted User 863]

We should all just hold hands around a campfire and cook smores. Puff of the peace pipe.

At a certain point it just has to become accepted reality that humans are dangerous/violent animals (just like the majority of other living species on this planet).

[ousdahl]

Oudsie…just curious what you think might happen if the US stopped supporting Ukraine immediately

the war would prob immediately be over?

here's the thing, tho - we'd have to do it in some halfway diplomatic way...assuming the US even has any diplomacy to offer.

Come out and say something like "if Putin agrees to cease this invasion nonsense then we agree to stop flooding the place with weapons too." And add some lip service shit about "Ukrainian neutrality," and maybe even some shit about helping Ukraine draft some more token laws for themselves about "de-nazifying."

Is that really so kooky?

you think 1) Ukraine wouldn’t just get weapons from other western countries, and 2) that putin would just stop?

1. wait, so is that what this is about? The bigger end game being the US wants to maintain control of some global weapons market? As if it's just another commodity, and not literal instruments of war. That might actually check out. We haven't discussed much of the weapons trade among other countries, so this point seems a little out of left field. Is this a concern to you? Are you privy to some info here? It's some sort of, "well if we aren't the ones flooding Ukraine with weapons then someone else might, so we might as well be the ones flooding Ukraine with weapons." Is this really the logic at play here?

2. like I said, if we brokered it in a diplomatic enough way, perhaps? And if not, and Putin doesn't stick to his end of the deal, then that's more than enough pretense for the US and NATO invade Moscow, and you war pigs finally get the WW3 you've been itching for.

[KUTradition]

the war would prob immediately be over?

here's the thing, tho - we'd have to do it in some halfway diplomatic way...assuming the US even has any diplomacy to offer.

Come out and say something like "if Putin agrees to cease this invasion nonsense then we agree to stop flooding the place with weapons too." And add some lip service shit about "Ukrainian neutrality," and maybe even some shit about helping Ukraine draft some more token laws for themselves about "de-nazifying."

Is that really so kooky?

you think 1) Ukraine wouldn’t just get weapons from other western countries, and 2) that putin would just stop?

1. wait, so is that what this is about? The bigger end game being the US wants to maintain control of some global weapons market? As if it's just another commodity, and not literal instruments of war. That might actually check out. We haven't discussed much of the weapons trade among other countries, so this point seems a little out of left field. Is this a concern to you? Are you privy to some info here? It's some sort of, "well if we aren't the ones flooding Ukraine with weapons then someone else might, so we might as well be the ones flooding Ukraine with weapons." Is this really the logic at play here?

2. like I said, if we brokered it in a diplomatic enough way, perhaps? And if not, and Putin doesn't stick to his end of the deal, then that's more than enough pretense for the US and NATO invade Moscow, and you war pigs finally get the WW3 you've been itching for.

the US isn’t the only manufacturer of military weapons. a number of NATO countries, most notably the UK, do as well

none of NATO countries are comfortable with putin’s actions…so again, what makes you think they wouldn’t supply Ukraine with arms should the US cease to. don’t deflect this time - answer the question

do you really believe Ukraine is all putin has his eyes set on? despite his own conflicting justifications for the aggression?

[Mjl]

Have fun Trad

[ousdahl]

We should all just hold hands around a campfire and cook smores. Puff of the peace pipe.

It's just an inconvenient truth that, at least in the latest chapter of Ukraine conflict, the US has been meddling for years there with the war games. It just seems disingenuous, even irresponsible, to refuse to acknowledge that as a contributing factor to this current conflict.

At a certain point it just has to become accepted reality that humans are dangerous/violent animals (just like the majority of other living species on this planet).

"it just has to become accepted reality" isn't any sort of legitimate reason or justification. It's post-hoc excuse making for the current world order and the evils that have been created. Let's not be so contented as to just accept it.

[KUTradition]

fyi…more than 25 countries are supplying Ukraine with weapons and military aid

edit: https://politico.com/news/2022/03/22/uk ... d-00019104

[KUTradition]

Have fun Trad

every few days i’ll give him a chance

i’m almost done for today

[Deleted User 863]

1) That is what you took from that?

2) JFC


I can't believe some of you have engaged in this for 50+ pages. It's rambling nonsense.

[Deleted User 863]

Maybe if we wrote a really nice letter to Putin he'd just stop? I've got extra stamps I am willing to donate.

[ousdahl]

the US isn’t the only manufacturer of military weapons. a number of NATO countries, most notably the UK, do as well

none of NATO countries are comfortable with putin’s actions…so again, what makes you think they wouldn’t supply Ukraine with arms should the US cease to. don’t deflect this time - answer the question

do you really believe Ukraine is all putin has his eyes set on? despite his own conflicting justifications for the aggression?

forgive me, I didn't mean to deflect. Like I said, I'm not super familiar with the global weapons trade, but indeed, you may be onto something that if the US didn't supply weapons then some other country might. But the US is perhaps the biggest player in NATO, and if the US acted like the actual leaders of the free world who actually wanted to broker peace, would the rest of NATO perhaps follow suit?

How would you feel about some other country, perhaps even some other NATO country, going behind our backs about Ukraine?

If actual peace-brokering just isn't an option, then perhaps it's a matter of getting Ukraine to the point we westerners just don't care about it any more, like so many other wars?

thought experiment: if indeed "none of NATO countries are comfortable with putin's actions," then what about non-NATO countries? You realize most of the world is NOT NATO, right? Or do you mean to say the US/NATO world view is the only world view that matters?

and yes, maybe Putin's end game is more than just Ukraine. Do you think he's going for some bigger continental or global domination, here? That's a scary thought! I'd want to try to diplomatically diffuse that shit, rather than insist only upon more and more militant escalation, tho it's not like I'm in charge about these things.

Is there legit evidence Putin wants do to that, though?

[KUTradition]

“I'm not super familiar with the global weapons trade”

it would behoove you to do some research prior to these discussions

“But the US is perhaps the biggest player in NATO, and if the US acted like the actual leaders of the free world who actually wanted to broker peace…”

by doing what, exactly? are you forgetting the months of attempted diplomacy prior to any actual fighting?

“How would you feel about some other country, perhaps even some other NATO country, going behind our backs about Ukraine?”

not sure what you’re getting at. going behind our backs how? if another NATO country went behind the US’ back, they’d necessarily be going behind the backs of all other NATO members as well, and i’d imagine such an action wouldn’t sit well. there’s a reason the alliance exists - the greater good for all members

give me a more specific hypothetical that gets at what you’re asking

“t hought experiment: if indeed "none of NATO countries are comfortable with putin's actions," then what about non-NATO countries? You realize most of the world is NOT NATO, right? Or do you mean to say the US/NATO world view is the only world view that matters?”

what’s your point? of course the views of non-NATO countries matter, generally. but, some countries have a vested and direct interest in what’s going. it should be pretty obvious that the sentiments of Ivory Coast or French Guyana are secondary to those of European countries in this instance.

the US and NATO are pro-democracy. i’m pro-democracy. i don’t give two shots about the opinions of countries that aren’t pro-democracy. do you think the opinions of autocratic or totalitarian governments should matter as much or more than those that are pro-democracy?

of course there’s no direct evidence that putin has visions beyond Ukraine, but people much smarter and informed on this subject are near certain that, at least impart, Ukraine has been as much an exercise to see what putin can get away with as it is anything directly related to Ukraine.

again, why are you so insistent on believing putin’s narrative, even in the face of his ever-changing justifications for the provocation?

you still aren’t answering my questions, but deflecting…sorry, but it comes off as you really just not having any clue what you’re talking about

[ousdahl]

Maybe if we wrote a really nice letter to Putin he'd just stop? I've got extra stamps I am willing to donate.

I think that's much of the problem - the collective western view on war is some toxic masculinity type shit that says we we can't even pretend to appear like we're willing to concede a thing - ESPECIALLY not to our long time nemesis the Ruskies! Why choose diplomacy when we could choose to be militant assholes instead?

and just the collective insistence that the US and NATO and our own warmongering couldn't *possibly* be part of the problem too.

and the way any attempts to criticize, or even just contextualize, our own warmongering is met only with knee jerk dismissals and petty personal attacks and name calling, just like the war machine has conditioned you to do. You never ask questions when God's on yer side!

but please, go on about how the only one with self-awareness issues is me.

[Deleted User 863]

LOL the collective western view on war....

Thank goodness the rest of the world is so peaceful.

[KUTradition]

Maybe if we wrote a really nice letter to Putin he'd just stop? I've got extra stamps I am willing to donate.

I think that's much of the problem - the collective western view on war is some toxic masculinity type shit that says we we can't even pretend to appear like we're willing to concede a thing - ESPECIALLY not to our long time nemesis the Ruskies! Why choose diplomacy when we could choose to be militant assholes instead?

and just the collective insistence that the US and NATO and our own warmongering couldn't *possibly* be part of the problem too.

and the way any attempts to criticize, or even just contextualize, our own warmongering is met only with knee jerk dismissals and petty personal attacks and name calling, just like the war machine has conditioned you to do. You never ask questions when God's on yer side!

but please, go on about how the only one with self-awareness issues is me.

this narrative is so short-sighted and oblivious to human history (and animal behavior)

[Deleted User 863]

Oblivious indeed

[TDub]

Just peeking my head through the door.....looks like Crazy is still the prevalent mood. Ill see myself out.


Leave the smores but ill take that peace pipe

[Deleted User 863]

Leave the smores but ill take that peace pipe

Be careful, I am becoming concerned that it might have crack cocaine it in.

[TDub]

Leave the smores but ill take that peace pipe

Be careful, I am becoming concerned that it might have crack cocaine it in.

dude. Putin is reliable and trustworthy. Hes not the aggressor here. If we just all decide to leave Ukraine I'm sure he would quit. He's just nervous because the rest of the world exists.


nevermind....take the pipe back

[TDub]

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ru ... 022-04-14/

[ousdahl]

by doing what, exactly? are you forgetting the months of attempted diplomacy prior to any actual fighting?

this would be good to review. What diplomacy, exactly? I'd like to see a timeline of attempts at diplomacy, juxtaposed with a timeline of "lethal aid." To review only one without the other would seem disingenuous.

“How would you feel about some other country, perhaps even some other NATO country, going behind our backs about Ukraine?”

not sure what you’re getting at.

guess I'm not sure either then...I just asked cuz you're the one who alleged Ukraine would "just get weapons from other western countries" and I was trying to better understand that much.

“t hought experiment: if indeed "none of NATO countries are comfortable with putin's actions," then what about non-NATO countries? You realize most of the world is NOT NATO, right? Or do you mean to say the US/NATO world view is the only world view that matters?”

what’s your point? of course the views of non-NATO countries matter, generally. but, some countries have a vested and direct interest in what’s going. it should be pretty obvious that the sentiments of Ivory Coast or French Guyana are secondary to those of European countries in this instance.

my point is that much of the rest of the world views the US and NATO not as the liberators we tell ourselves we are, but as thee biggest warmongers in the world, and a bunch of hypocrites to boot. Much of the rest of the world is viewing this not as some good guy bad guy pick a side narrative like we do, but as two imperial bullies trying to outmeasure each other's cocks. Turns out, clusterfucks like the Iraq invasion, the Afghanistan invasion, et al, were quite the dings to our global reputation, and in light of that, much of the rest of the world thinks we don't have the credibility to now claim some moral high road about other foreign invasions and such.

(AGAIN, not that that justifies any Russian aggression!)

[/quote] the US and NATO are pro-democracy. i’m pro-democracy.[/quote]

I am pro-democracy too! But my concern is, the Ukraine sounds effectively far closer to some far-right fascist authoritarian regime, than they are to any sort of healthy democracy. I don't know how you can be so indifferent to that. And let me again clarify - even if Ukraine is run by a bunch of fascists, that in no way justifies the Russian invasion! But! In no way does it justify your and my tax dollars paying for Ukrainian extremists' weapons, either!

and realize, much of the rest of the world does not view the US and NATO as necessarily being "pro-democracy" in the feel-good way we think of it. See the previous points about Afghanistan et al.

NOT THAT THAT WOULD JUSTIFY RUSSIAN INVASION

of course there’s no direct evidence that putin has visions beyond Ukraine but people much smarter and informed on this subject are near certain that, at least impart, Ukraine has been as much an exercise to see what putin can get away with as it is anything directly related to Ukraine.

if there is a lack of "direct evidence" that that much might actually occur, doesn't it seem like that may just be more sensationalist pro-war rhetoric, then? But yeah, if it was up to Putin, I'm sure his stupid ego would be thrilled to have some big giant imperial footprint to call his own. As delusional as he is, though, short of actual evidence of as much, then suggesting that much might be giving him too much credit.

again, why are you so insistent on believing putin’s narrative, even in the face of his ever-changing justifications for the provocation?

it's so frustrating that, no matter how many times I condemn this shit, you guys still try to pin me as "believing Putin's narrative" regardless. BEING ANTI-WAR DOES NOT EQUATE TO BEING PRO-THE OTHER SIDE. Try conditioning your minds to be better than that!

I don't believe Putin's narrative one bit! I've said that over and over and over again. And again, please make the attempt to distinguish. Just cuz I'd rather not be arming a bunch of nazis doesn't automatically equate to being a Russia supporter. I condemn their aggression! It's just I condemn the Ukrainian ethno-fascist aggression too! Do you?

cuz bear in mind, there's plenty of evidence, from our own government and western media, that Ukraine was and is a mess all along. It's not believing Putin's narrative to acknowledge that. To REFUSE to acknowledge that like totally IS some fucked up western propagandized bullshit, though!

you still aren’t answering my questions, but deflecting…sorry, but it comes off as you really just not having any clue what you’re talking about

I've tried to answer your questions directly. Forgive me if it's still not satisfactory to you. I'll admit tho, I'm no expert about eastern European foreign policy! Forgive me if I'm still not being direct enough...or if I'm not just telling you what you wanna hear.

Let me try to articulate, once again, that both of these things can be true:

- the Russian invasion should be condemned
- Ukraine has a nazi problem either way

I suppose the reason I can't shut up about it, is your guys's shameless gaslighting otherwise, combined with your guys's perceived reluctance to admit nazism is a problem too.

another thought experiment!: say Russia is licked, and Putin comes out with his tail between his legs, and concedes defeat, and hastily withdraws from Ukraine. (if only!) So, what then? We have a nation rife with right-wing extremism, but now as emboldened as ever by their victory over Russia, and also better armed than they've ever been, to get back to their genocidal civil war humanitarian crisis no one cared about previously...what then? Do we just go back to like not caring about it again?

let's go way down Q's rabbit hole: what if all that happens, and Ukraine then starts being the imperial cockmeasurers? What if they start invading their neighbors trying to impose their ethno-nationalist shit all across Europe? sound familiar?

at what point DO we say, hey maybe we DON'T want fascism on the rise in Europe once again, and certainly don't want to be instrumental in weaponizing as much. and not just some fringe groups in the "BuT EvErY CoUnTrY HaS NaZiS!!!" kinda way, but in an alarmingly state-supported kinda way. You seent what happened last time, right?

(mjl can we please be on the same side here? I'm trying to be CONCERNED about the rise of nazism, not just shrug it off like so many others wanna do!)

I think it's that so many of you guys don't even realize how conditioned we are to reduce it to some good guy bad guy narrative and just "pick a side," and it bugs you that I'd rather pick some more comprehensive anti-war stance instead.

but most of all, I'm bummed this is so divisive. I'd rather just get along. I don't think we're nearly as far off as we think. I'm thinking about remaining this thread in the hopes it might just blow over.