Let’s have a war!

[DCHawk1]

eventually the voices of reason, i.e., peace, prevailed.

sigh.

The voices of reason (understandably) didn't want to be drafted to fight a war half-way around the world for something they neither understood nor cared about.

You want this war to end soon? Make American kids go fight it.

[Shirley]

eventually the voices of reason, i.e., peace, prevailed.

sigh.

The voices of reason (understandably) didn't want to be drafted to fight a war half-way around the world for something they neither understood nor cared about.

You want this war to end soon? Make American kids go fight it.

In my experience, nothing focuses the American public's attention like a draft.

Eventually.

[ousdahl]

that "eventually" is terrifying, but yea, prob.

[ousdahl]

War in 2023.

Vietnam is known as "the first televised war", and it's thought that because it was so in our face's all the time compared to previous wars, eventually the voices of reason, i.e., peace, prevailed.

That ain't nothing compared to this:

Feb 27, 2023 BURNING Russian soldiers flee destroyed tank hit by Ukrainian drone bomb in brutal battlefield footage.

This footage was released by the Ukrainian armed forces and shows a tank being targeted by an aerial attack.

This footage has not yet been verified and the location is currently unconfirmed.

The Sun newspaper brings you the latest breaking news videos and explainers from the UK and around the world...

Warning: Don't watch this:

Burning Russian soldiers flee destroyed tank hit by Ukrainian drone bomb

Invaders failing.
I hope it continues

actually, could you please help me understand the dynamic and the mood and all during Vietnam? What exactly was so "in our faces?" Who was televising it? What sort of content was televised?

was it some objective journalism that painted a grim picture of the realities of war, and the people got weary? or was it some pointedly prescribed media to maintain a certain narrative like, "Merica good Vietcong bad!", and the people eventually saw through it?

I guess that's all leading up to my bigger question:

how did Vietnam manage to prompt some actual anti-war movement?

and why has such a movement been so limited since?

maybe it was largely cuz of U.S. kids having to fight...but plenty of other U.S. kids have fought and died in war (including wars halfway across the world, in which we were once again the invaders) (and various other conflicts) since, yet the Merican people still seem as Let's Have A War as ever.

So maybe it was the draft? When did conscription end? And weren't there loopholes anyway? at least in the final years...my dad has stories of him and his friends sitting around in the dorms listening to the radio announce draft birthdays, making a game over who would be called first, but they got out of it cuz they were students. And pretty sure this is right around the same time ol' Donald John came down with that nasty case of bone spurs.

so many questions, I know I know, my bad. lemme finish this not with yet another question, but a simple word of caution:

just based on the tone of this thread so far, you may want to refrain from posting unverified footage from unconfirmed locations.

[jhawks99]

eventually the voices of reason, i.e., peace, prevailed.

sigh.

The voices of reason (understandably) didn't want to be drafted to fight a war half-way around the world for something they neither understood nor cared about.

You want this war to end soon? Make American kids go fight it.

That will end it alright. In a big, bright instant.

(I do understand your point though)

[KUTradition]

Meanwhile, Kremlin Press Secretary Dmitry Peskov said Russia was willing to re-enter negotiations with Kyiv. However, he said that Ukraine and its Western allies must accept Russia's illegal annexation of four Ukrainian regions - Donetsk, Luhansk, Kherson and Zaporizhzhia.

"There are certain realities that have already become an internal factor. I mean the new territories. The constitution of the Russian Federation exists, and cannot be ignored. Russia will never be able to compromise on this, these are important realities," Mr Peskov said during a news conference in Moscow.

so, the russian federation’s constitution matters but not Ukraine’s?

if everyone were to concede in the name of peace, what’s to keep russia from repeating this whole thing in 5-10 years in orders to take more territory?

[ousdahl]

I wonder what the people of Donetsk, Luhansk, Kherson and Zaporizhzhia want for Donetsk, Luhansk, Kherson and Zaporizhzhia.

I wonder if it’s even possible to know - which is to say, whether it’s even possible to hold some free and democratic election about it at this point.

It sucks that those peoples in particular are stuck in between as some sorta imperial cannon fodder.

[KUTradition]

I wonder what the people of Donetsk, Luhansk, Kherson and Zaporizhzhia want for Donetsk, Luhansk, Kherson and Zaporizhzhia.

I wonder if it’s even possible to know - which is to say, whether it’s even possible to hold some free and democratic election about it at this point.

It sucks that those peoples in particular are stuck in between as some sorta imperial cannon fodder.

i’m sure there are some that feel the same way folks of the rural western US (and MTG) feel…thing is, countries have constitutions and laws

but, this has been explained previously, apparently to deaf ears

[KUTradition]

if a state in northern Mexico wanted to become part of the US, would you support US military occupying and laying waste to said state until Mexico acquiesced?

[ousdahl]

if a state in northern Mexico wanted to become part of the US, would you support US military occupying and laying waste to said state until Mexico acquiesced?

No, actually…if it was up to me I’d just give back Texas.

[ousdahl]

I wonder what the people of Donetsk, Luhansk, Kherson and Zaporizhzhia want for Donetsk, Luhansk, Kherson and Zaporizhzhia.

I wonder if it’s even possible to know - which is to say, whether it’s even possible to hold some free and democratic election about it at this point.

It sucks that those peoples in particular are stuck in between as some sorta imperial cannon fodder.

i’m sure there are some that feel the same way folks of the rural western US (and MTG) feel…thing is, countries have constitutions and laws

but, this has been explained previously, apparently to deaf ears

What was the deaf ears part?

I guess cuz people shouldn’t be able to just cuz they want to? They have to stick to the existing constitutions or something?

So, who gets to decide which constitutions are legit, and which are illegal?

do the Donetsk, Luhansk and such regions have any constitutions of their own?

[TDub]

If you dont understand the ears comment it further proves its validity

[ousdahl]

I’m sincerely asking. I’m all ears!

Perhaps I don’t recall, so if you could help me out, and help me out in a way to make sure I understand it, please do.

To be unwilling to do that much, and to be unwilling in favor of some CoyDC response offered to prove some validity or something, doesn’t seem to be helping.

[TDub]

As nicely as possible. No, I'm not doing this again.

If you are all ears....and eyes. There is 112 pages filled with valid responses you can peruse at your leisure.

[ousdahl]

Darn.

Could I maybe ask someone else?

Anyone justheretohelp?

[ousdahl]

Ok, fine.

So I did search back 112 pages for something on constitutions, and found this much from a British website, which is to say, clearly it’s Russian propaganda.

So I guess what makes a constitution legit is when it’s installed by masked militants who overthrew a democratically elected gummint?

Got it!

The Ukrainian protests of 2013-14 and subsequent coup seem to be noteworthy.

Here’s a British journalist’s take on Ukraine in 2014, a couple months after the regime change:

https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... v-conflict

It's not Russia that's pushed Ukraine to the brink of war

The attempt to lever Kiev into the western camp by ousting an elected leader made conflict certain. It could be a threat to us all

The threat of war in Ukraine is growing. As the unelected government in Kiev declares itself unable to control the rebellion in the country's east, John Kerry brands Russia a rogue state. The US and the European Union step up sanctions against the Kremlin, accusing it of destabilising Ukraine. The White House is reported to be set on a new cold war policy with the aim of turning Russia into a "pariah state".

That might be more explicable if what is going on in eastern Ukraine now were not the mirror image of what took place in Kiev a couple of months ago. Then, it was armed protesters in Maidan Square seizing government buildings and demanding a change of government and constitution. US and European leaders championed the "masked militants" and denounced the elected government for its crackdown, just as they now back the unelected government's use of force against rebels occupying police stations and town halls in cities such as Slavyansk and Donetsk.
"America is with you," Senator John McCain told demonstrators then, standing shoulder to shoulder with the leader of the far-right Svoboda party as the US ambassador haggled with the state department over who would make up the new Ukrainian government.
When the Ukrainian president was replaced by a US-selected administration, in an entirely unconstitutional takeover, politicians such as William Hague brazenly misled parliament about the legality of what had taken place: the imposition of a pro-western government on Russia's most neuralgic and politically divided neighbour.

…

After Crimeans voted overwhelmingly to join Russia, the bulk of the western media abandoned any hint of even-handed coverage. So Putin is now routinely compared to Hitler, while the role of the fascistic right on the streets and in the new Ukrainian regime has been airbrushed out of most reporting as Putinist propaganda.
So you don't hear much about the Ukrainian government's veneration of wartime Nazi collaborators and pogromists, or the arson attacks on the homes and offices of elected communist leaders, or the integration of the extreme Right Sector into the national guard, while the anti-semitism and white supremacism of the government's ultra-nationalists is assiduously played down, and false identifications of Russian special forces are relayed as fact.

…

Meanwhile, the US and its European allies impose sanctions and dictate terms to Russia and its proteges in Kiev, encouraging the military crackdown on protesters after visits from Joe Biden and the CIA director, John Brennan. But by what right is the US involved at all, incorporating under its strategic umbrella a state that has never been a member of Nato, and whose last elected government came to power on a platform of explicit neutrality? It has none, of course – which is why the Ukraine crisis is seen in such a different light across most of the world. There may be few global takers for Putin's oligarchic conservatism and nationalism, but Russia's counterweight to US imperial expansion is welcomed, from China to Brazil.
In fact, one outcome of the crisis is likely to be a closer alliance between China and Russia…

Among other thoughts - how often is a coup in some other country met with visits by the likes of John McCain and Joe Biden to voice their support?

(Of course, many lefties allege those “masked militants” were the CIA…)

[DCHawk1]

Teh Grauniad?

[ousdahl]

I know, I know. It’s not exactly more unverified footage from unconfirmed locations, but at least it’s something.

[Shirley]

In this scene from Weekend In Keeyeev, we open with a Ukrainian tank attempting to soften the target, a trench of Russians. Then, the infantry moves in to finish the job even jumping down into the trench. At ~ 1 minute in, the drone camera pulls back to widen the frame, and if you look at the trench just above the bottom of the screen, you'll see a Russian soldier firing back at the Ukrainians. (Edited to add: And there's another Russian shooting back above him.)

#shudder

#handtohandf___ingcombat

[KUTradition]

https://pbs.org/newshour/show/ukraines- ... dependence