Let’s have a war!

[Cascadia]

correction. you have been going in the wrong direction.

most of the rest of us have been moving in the right direction. always have. always will.

the UNITED STATES is the greatest country on earth. by a wide margin. don't fault the rest of us for your failings.

Ladies and gentlemen, a sheep

[KUTradition]

trying to find estimates for the level of nazification in Ukraine

900-1000 neo-nazis?

with only 2% of the government consisting of “far-right” ideologues

https://inews.co.uk/news/world/ukraine- ... ts-1532056

of course, any is too many…but one would be led to believe, based on some of the comments here, that the situation is much more dire and newsworthy than what russia is doing

[ousdahl]

sorry I was a stubborn asshole in this thread again you guys. I think there's merit to anti-war views, which is why I'm being so insistent, but I'm also prob not doing a good job of articulating. And either way I just don't wanna be a pain.

[ousdahl]

“There's also a nice table on this wiki page that shows Ukraine going on the wrong direction.”

as is the US

"if the US saw how the US treats its own people, the US would invade itself."

[ousdahl]

is there a specific level of democracy where it would be ok for Russia to proceed? I mean, what does that really have to do with the acceptability of the invasion?

that's part of what got Qusdahl all worked up. Any attempt to try and understand why Russia might proceed, or why they think there's any merit to their actions, is strictly forbidden.

Not that I'm saying there's any merit to Russia's actions.

[ousdahl]

trying to find estimates for the level of nazification in Ukraine

900-1000 neo-nazis?

with only 2% of the government consisting of “far-right” ideologues

https://inews.co.uk/news/world/ukraine- ... ts-1532056

of course, any is too many…but one would be led to believe, based on some of the comments here, that the situation is much more dire and newsworthy than what russia is doing

it sounds like 900-1000 is the number of the Azov battalion, one of the more infamous paramilitary militias with openly neo-nazi tenets, yet was granted some sort of legit status by Ukraine's national guard, I believe after that Maidan revolution in '14.

and yeah, hopefully the nazis are a small minority in Ukraine. But even if they are a small minority, they sure do seem to do a good job of popping up among western media sources trying to downplay their presence otherwise. I'm guessing it may be a tail-wagging-the-dog thing.

[TDub]

is there a specific level of democracy where it would be ok for Russia to proceed? I mean, what does that really have to do with the acceptability of the invasion?

that's part of what got Qusdahl all worked up. Any attempt to try and understand why Russia might proceed, or why they think there's any merit to their actions, is strictly forbidden.

Not that I'm saying there's any merit to Russia's actions.

narrator "there's not"

[ousdahl]

I didn't say there was.

[Cascadia]

define legitimate democracy

Maybe I should have said "legitimately a democracy". Either way, there are systems that exist to monitor levels of democracy

https://www.democracymatrix.com/ranking

Ukraine # 92 - Hybrid Regime

https://freedomhouse.org/countries/freedom-world/scores

Ukraine
#101 Global Freedom Score(61) = Partly Free
Democracy score of 39 = Transitional of Hybrid Regime


There's also a nice table on this wiki page that shows Ukraine going on the wrong direction.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index

2006 = 6.94
2021 = 5.57

thanks for this. it’s a bit more into the weeds than i was going for, but i’ll have to give those links a look

my thinking was more along the lines of free and fare elections

Where Ukraine really scores poorly is "Functioning of Government". They're similar to Laos, Vietnam, Algeria, Iran, North Korea.

But, to be clear, this has nothing to do with the war. I'm just not a fan of people making the argument that the US is supporting Ukraine because the US is 'defending democracy'.

That's fucking laughable.

[KUTradition]

Maybe I should have said "legitimately a democracy". Either way, there are systems that exist to monitor levels of democracy

https://www.democracymatrix.com/ranking

Ukraine # 92 - Hybrid Regime

https://freedomhouse.org/countries/freedom-world/scores

Ukraine
#101 Global Freedom Score(61) = Partly Free
Democracy score of 39 = Transitional of Hybrid Regime


There's also a nice table on this wiki page that shows Ukraine going on the wrong direction.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index

2006 = 6.94
2021 = 5.57

thanks for this. it’s a bit more into the weeds than i was going for, but i’ll have to give those links a look

my thinking was more along the lines of free and fare elections

Where Ukraine really scores poorly is "Functioning of Government". They're similar to Laos, Vietnam, Algeria, Iran, North Korea.

But, to be clear, this has nothing to do with the war. I'm just not a fan of people making the argument that the US is supporting Ukraine because the US is 'defending democracy'.

That's fucking laughable.

do you agree that part of putin’s motives are anti-democracy?

[ousdahl]

what's the economic factors here? It's a quiet part of the narrative, but a big one to consider.

Wasn't there some big oil pipeline deal between Russia and Germany, with Ukrainian implications, that fell through just before the invasion?

[Cascadia]

do you agree that part of putin’s motives are anti-democracy?

Does anyone really know what his motives are? He's a fucking psychopath and he's been a known problem for 15+ years.

If I had to speculate, I don't think his motives are necessarily anti-democracy but rather pro-Putin legacy. I think he wants to be remembered like Hitler. Which is just so fucking crazy.

[Mjl]

is there a specific level of democracy where it would be ok for Russia to proceed? I mean, what does that really have to do with the acceptability of the invasion?

that's part of what got Qusdahl all worked up. Any attempt to try and understand why Russia might proceed, or why they think there's any merit to their actions, is strictly forbidden.

Not that I'm saying there's any merit to Russia's actions.

Talking about Afghanistan harboring terrorists effectively defends the US invasion.
Talking about Saddam's authoritarianism effectively defends the US invasion.
Talking about George Floyd's incarceration history effectively defends Chauvin.

In all those cases, while you're not explicitly defending the aggressor, you're effectively defending them. In every case it's bullshit because the excuses are not legitimate reasons to be the aggressor, so when bringing them up in the context of the aggressive behavior, the only purpose they serve is to try to defend the aggressor.

[ousdahl]

Ugh. So I know I should just quit this thread too, but once again this double standard is just too much.

Before we get to that tho, let me make another attempt at humility. I’ve just been trying to get some bigger picture understanding of this war, and if in doing so I didn’t do enough to distinguish those attempts from just sympathizing with the bad guys, forgive me.

Allow me to once again condemn the Russian invasion. Please take that at face value! I mean it genuinely, and don’t intend to deceive. If you still insist that my condemnations are not genuine despite that, please realize the “no means yes” sort of Q logic you’re relying on to do so.

With that said, if I may ask - why are you OK with calling bullshit on the reasons for war 2 decades after the fact, but not in real time?

If you were running around in 01 and 03 saying terrorism and authoritarianism are “not legitimate reasons” for militant aggression, you would’ve labeled you a Qusdahl, and chased you off of the pols bored.

So what changed?

[Mjl]

I was against the Iraq war the whole time. I wasn't sure about Afghanistan. I would hope that the fact that we're so against this war is indication we have improved as a society, recognizing that war is not ok. And my take here is the same, war is not ok.

"why are you OK with calling bullshit on the reasons for war 2 decades after the fact, but not in real time":

Please understand, that's what we're doing. We're calling bullshit on the reasons for war in real time.

[Mjl]

Is the disconnect here that you consider the US and Ukraine to be the aggressors here?

Or that in a war, both sides are always to blame?

[jfish26]

Maybe I should have said "legitimately a democracy". Either way, there are systems that exist to monitor levels of democracy

https://www.democracymatrix.com/ranking

Ukraine # 92 - Hybrid Regime

https://freedomhouse.org/countries/freedom-world/scores

Ukraine
#101 Global Freedom Score(61) = Partly Free
Democracy score of 39 = Transitional of Hybrid Regime


There's also a nice table on this wiki page that shows Ukraine going on the wrong direction.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index

2006 = 6.94
2021 = 5.57

thanks for this. it’s a bit more into the weeds than i was going for, but i’ll have to give those links a look

my thinking was more along the lines of free and fare elections

Where Ukraine really scores poorly is "Functioning of Government". They're similar to Laos, Vietnam, Algeria, Iran, North Korea.

But, to be clear, this has nothing to do with the war. I'm just not a fan of people making the argument that the US is supporting Ukraine because the US is 'defending democracy'.

That's fucking laughable.

I mean, I think it can be true at the same time that (1) the US' primary motivations here are not, in the abstract, "defending democracy," and (2) the US' actions (and NATO's actions) are in fact defending democracy.

[KUTradition]

chilling place to visit

https://www.nps.gov/places/heart-mounta ... center.htm

i’m sure it’s nothing like the Holocaust sites, but it’s still quite the experience

The interment camps are part of the back story and inspiration for Roger Shimomura who taught painting at KU for more than 3 decades. His work is pretty interesting. I remember seeing his paintings in the Art & Design gallery at KU way back when.

related:

https://travelawaits.com/2742018/amache ... -colorado/

country’s newest national park

[ousdahl]

man, I feel rotten. I don't like being so at odds with you guys. And I know it's prob for the better to just shut my mouth and hope this thread goes away.

but, at least this time, I have a favor to ask:

could you please talk Qusdahl off the ledge about this one?

https://www.cnn.com/2022/04/19/politics ... index.html

(though, I suppose, which direction off the ledge is up to you)

[TDub]