Let’s have a war!

[japhy]

"It was used by many southwestern tribes, most notably the Navajo. Among different tribes the swastika carried various meanings. To the Hopi it represented the wandering Hopi clans; to the Navajo it represented a whirling log ( tsil no'oli' ), a sacred image representing a legend that was used in healing rituals."


not real difficult to find.....

The real actual Nazis adapted symbols from other older cultures to create their imaginary "Aryan culture". So it is not surprising to find symbols that are associated with the Nazis, in photos of unaffiliated cultures. After WWII some decided to not use their ancient symbols going forward because of the taint and others decided to hell with the Nazis destroying your symbols, and continue to use them. Because they weren't Nazi symbols to begin with. Cultural appropriation doesn't require the original culture to stop using their own symbols in the future.

[ousdahl]

I dunno if it's accurate to call Ukraine an "unaffiliated culture" tho. They have a direct history with Nazi Germany. Heck, according to trad's PBS link, Ukrainians even welcomed Nazi occupation in WW2.

but, whatever the reason for what all the nazi-associated symbols in modern day Ukraine are supposed to represent, I'm not sure it's anything to do with wandering clans or whirling logs.

in fact, they even told us the reason: according to the NBC News's interview with nazi-symbol-brandishing Ukrainians, they wear such symbols because nationalism.

and, come on Japhy, let's face it. If we're all sitting around the Frontier Drive Inn watching old KU games and sipping Manhattans, and a bunch of other random folks show up brandishing swastikas and SS symbols and shit, I don't think the reaction from you or collectively anyone else is gonna be "oh no big deal maybe it's just something about the Navajos."

[Deleted User 863]

Nobody here said anything even remotely close to any of that.

[KUTradition]

Heck, according to trad's PBS link, Ukrainians even welcomed Nazi occupation in WW2.

how convenient if you not to provide the rest of the story for context

[ousdahl]

ok, yea, I guess Ukraine welcomed the nazis cuz they were so opposed to the Russians/Soviets back then too, right?

so much so, that they and their national hero Bandera struck a deal with the devil. But, (and we're really playing devil's advocate here now, apparently), when your choice at the time is either the soviets or the nazis, maybe that's some kinda lesser-of-two-evils thing, I guess.

now, come on, for real, this isn't some debate in ancient symbology here. This is the nazis. Like the actual for real nazis. Like not just any old wandering clan, but thee German third reich, Hitler hailing, literal fucking nazis. I almost just replied with "it's the fucking nazis, what context do you need?", but again, apparently we're playing devil's advocate.

of course, like I said, that was at the time. I guess the world at large didn't realize the full extent of nazi evil in real time, and never mind that Bandera was some sorta militant right wing ethno-nationalist himself.

But in hindsight, you'd think that after light was shed on the atrocities committed by the actual nazis, any sincerely pro-freedom and democracy anywhere would wanna very explicitly disassociate from that shit...kinda like how Germany themselves and the rest of the west-at-large very explicitly have done...or at least pretended to do...

...rather than doubling down on the symbols and salutes, and making a national holiday out of the nazi collaborator dood's birthday...

[japhy]

I thought Bandera died in the 1950's. How is he relevant to the current invasion of Ukraine?

[KUTradition]

just spit-ballin’…

if the nazis “liberated” Ukraine from the soviets, wouldn’t it make at least some sense for some Ukrainians to see that as a positive, regardless of how tone deaf those feelings might seem in today’s hindsight?

[KUTradition]

https://www.ushmm.org/information/exhib ... us/ukraine

[ousdahl]

holy shit!

this thread, man.

[Deleted User 863]

Some of them are trying to help you.

Some of us don't know why they bother.

[KUTradition]

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10 ... 22.2058179

[ousdahl]

https://www.ushmm.org/information/exhib ... us/ukraine

On the eve of the invasion in 1941, the territory of Ukraine in its current internationally recognized borders was home to one of the largest Jewish populations in Europe. The fate of those Jews depended on many factors, including the local occupying authority and whether they were among the very few evacuated to the interior of the Soviet Union ahead of the invading forces. While scholars are still researching the scale of the Holocaust in Ukraine, they estimate at least one and a half million Jews were killed there. The Museum is in the process of gathering written records and oral testimony to fully tell the story of what happened in Ukraine during the Holocaust.

What we do know is that following the brutal invasion of the Soviet Union by the German military, special forces called Einsatzgruppen arrived with orders to kill civilians perceived to be enemies of Nazi Germany. They divided the local population in the occupied territories of the Soviet Union, identifying the Jews and recruiting local collaborators. Most Jews in Ukraine were shot to death close to where they lived, not deported to distant camps. Their executioners were German but also Ukrainian, Russian, and other local collaborators.

just spit ballin, I know. but, if we're really gonna suggest the nazis "liberated" Ukraine, and many there view it as a "positive," so much so they're still going all fanboy about it to this day, I sure do hope they're able to articulate that it's exclusively cuz the Soviets really were that bad, and even more explicitly cuz it has nothing to do with/despite the fact the nazis showed up and killed one and a half million Jews.

[japhy]

https://www.ushmm.org/information/exhib ... us/ukraine

On the eve of the invasion in 1941, the territory of Ukraine in its current internationally recognized borders was home to one of the largest Jewish populations in Europe. The fate of those Jews depended on many factors, including the local occupying authority and whether they were among the very few evacuated to the interior of the Soviet Union ahead of the invading forces. While scholars are still researching the scale of the Holocaust in Ukraine, they estimate at least one and a half million Jews were killed there. The Museum is in the process of gathering written records and oral testimony to fully tell the story of what happened in Ukraine during the Holocaust.

What we do know is that following the brutal invasion of the Soviet Union by the German military, special forces called Einsatzgruppen arrived with orders to kill civilians perceived to be enemies of Nazi Germany. They divided the local population in the occupied territories of the Soviet Union, identifying the Jews and recruiting local collaborators. Most Jews in Ukraine were shot to death close to where they lived, not deported to distant camps. Their executioners were German but also Ukrainian, Russian, and other local collaborators.

just spit ballin, I know. but, if we're really gonna suggest the nazis "liberated" Ukraine, and many there view it as a "positive," so much so they're still going all fanboy about it to this day, I sure do hope they're able to articulate that it's exclusively cuz the Soviets really were that bad, and even more explicitly cuz it has nothing to do with/despite the fact the nazis showed up and killed one and a half million Jews.

Let's try this again....

I thought Bandera died in the 1950's. How is he relevant to the current invasion of Ukraine?

[ousdahl]

Some of them are trying to help you.

Some of us don't know why they bother.

likewise, illy.

the angle I really am trying to take here is, i'mjustheretohelp. As nicely and rationally as possible.

but, while I know it's tough wading through the propaganda and not being sure what to believe in real time, I honestly didn't expect raising concerns about nazis to be such a difficult sell, and I never in a million years thought this thread would go full "maybe the nazis were liberators."

[ousdahl]

https://www.ushmm.org/information/exhib ... us/ukraine

On the eve of the invasion in 1941, the territory of Ukraine in its current internationally recognized borders was home to one of the largest Jewish populations in Europe. The fate of those Jews depended on many factors, including the local occupying authority and whether they were among the very few evacuated to the interior of the Soviet Union ahead of the invading forces. While scholars are still researching the scale of the Holocaust in Ukraine, they estimate at least one and a half million Jews were killed there. The Museum is in the process of gathering written records and oral testimony to fully tell the story of what happened in Ukraine during the Holocaust.

What we do know is that following the brutal invasion of the Soviet Union by the German military, special forces called Einsatzgruppen arrived with orders to kill civilians perceived to be enemies of Nazi Germany. They divided the local population in the occupied territories of the Soviet Union, identifying the Jews and recruiting local collaborators. Most Jews in Ukraine were shot to death close to where they lived, not deported to distant camps. Their executioners were German but also Ukrainian, Russian, and other local collaborators.

just spit ballin, I know. but, if we're really gonna suggest the nazis "liberated" Ukraine, and many there view it as a "positive," so much so they're still going all fanboy about it to this day, I sure do hope they're able to articulate that it's exclusively cuz the Soviets really were that bad, and even more explicitly cuz it has nothing to do with/despite the fact the nazis showed up and killed one and a half million Jews.

Let's try this again....

I thought Bandera died in the 1950's. How is he relevant to the current invasion of Ukraine?

sorry Japhy, I was gonna reply to you sooner, but honestly, it's been difficult to keep up.

For one thing, mentioning that Ukraine has glorified and made a national hero (with his own holiday and everything!) out of some genocidal nazi collaborator...that could cast doubt on your otherwise ironclad theory that Ukraine is a bunch of freedom-and-democracy-loving choirboys, and any concerns about ethno-nationalism in modern day Ukraine is just Russian propaganda.

like for real, if Germany suddenly made a holiday out of Hitler's birthday, you think that might raise any eyebrows?

Or, not. Maybe Bandera is just a figment of Putin's imagination. Hitler too.

it's up to you.

[japhy]

Fort Carson in Colorado is named after Kit Carson. Soldiers from Fort Carson fought in the invasion of Afghanistan. Adolph Hitler once owned a ranch in Kit Carson, Colorado.

Is it possible to have a serious discussion of the US/Afghanistan War and the politics surrounding the war and start of the war; without including a discussion of Kit Carson and Adolph Hitler?

If it is possible to discuss the Afghanistan War without a reference to these two historical characters; why would anyone continually interject these two historical characters into a discussion of a war they had no part in?

Just thinking out loud here.

[Deleted User 863]

Some of them are trying to help you.

Some of us don't know why they bother.

likewise, illy.

the angle I really am trying to take here is, i'mjustheretohelp. As nicely and rationally as possible.

but, while I know it's tough wading through the propaganda and not being sure what to believe in real time, I honestly didn't expect raising concerns about nazis to be such a difficult sell, and I never in a million years thought this thread would go full "maybe the nazis were liberators."

With all due respect, I don't think you're intelligent enough to lecture or enlighten some of these guys on stuff like this. You're just not informed or smart enough to do so.

You should stay in the kiddie pool with me and cascadia. It's warm, not crowded, and someone comes and does animal balloons every afternoon in the summer when school is out.

[japhy]

just spit ballin, I know. but, if we're really gonna suggest the nazis "liberated" Ukraine, and many there view it as a "positive," so much so they're still going all fanboy about it to this day, I sure do hope they're able to articulate that it's exclusively cuz the Soviets really were that bad, and even more explicitly cuz it has nothing to do with/despite the fact the nazis showed up and killed one and a half million Jews.

Let's try this again....

I thought Bandera died in the 1950's. How is he relevant to the current invasion of Ukraine?

any concerns about ethno-nationalism in modern day Ukraine is just Russian propaganda.

What exactly was Russia concerned about? Was Ukraine threatening to invade Russia? Were they threatening to disrupt Russian trade? What threat would ethnographic-nationalism in Ukraine pose to Russian sovereignty or security? If Putin thought he would invade and conquer Ukraine in a week could he seriously have seen them as a military threat?

[KUTradition]

https://www.ushmm.org/information/exhib ... us/ukraine

On the eve of the invasion in 1941, the territory of Ukraine in its current internationally recognized borders was home to one of the largest Jewish populations in Europe. The fate of those Jews depended on many factors, including the local occupying authority and whether they were among the very few evacuated to the interior of the Soviet Union ahead of the invading forces. While scholars are still researching the scale of the Holocaust in Ukraine, they estimate at least one and a half million Jews were killed there. The Museum is in the process of gathering written records and oral testimony to fully tell the story of what happened in Ukraine during the Holocaust.

What we do know is that following the brutal invasion of the Soviet Union by the German military, special forces called Einsatzgruppen arrived with orders to kill civilians perceived to be enemies of Nazi Germany. They divided the local population in the occupied territories of the Soviet Union, identifying the Jews and recruiting local collaborators. Most Jews in Ukraine were shot to death close to where they lived, not deported to distant camps. Their executioners were German but also Ukrainian, Russian, and other local collaborators.

just spit ballin, I know. but, if we're really gonna suggest the nazis "liberated" Ukraine, and many there view it as a "positive," so much so they're still going all fanboy about it to this day, I sure do hope they're able to articulate that it's exclusively cuz the Soviets really were that bad, and even more explicitly cuz it has nothing to do with/despite the fact the nazis showed up and killed one and a half million Jews.

perhaps the nazi symbols are more about being anti-soviet/russia/putin than they are about being pro-nazi

i honestly don’t know

i do know that the “nazi” situation is much more nuanced and complex than you seem to appreciate

[ousdahl]

Let's try this again....

I thought Bandera died in the 1950's. How is he relevant to the current invasion of Ukraine?

any concerns about ethno-nationalism in modern day Ukraine is just Russian propaganda.

What exactly was Russia concerned about? Was Ukraine threatening to invade Russia? Were they threatening to disrupt Russian trade? What threat would ethnographic-nationalism in Ukraine pose to Russian sovereignty or security? If Putin thought he would invade and conquer Ukraine in a week could he seriously have seen them as a military threat?

I dunno. Illy says I'm too dumb for this thread.

But, if you'd really like, I'll attempt to articulate what little I understand (about your questions, regarding Putin's state of mind and true intentions), if and only if you agree to one condition:

do you promise to not call me a Russian sympathizer if I do?