Let’s have a war!

[ousdahl]

https://www.ushmm.org/information/exhib ... us/ukraine

On the eve of the invasion in 1941, the territory of Ukraine in its current internationally recognized borders was home to one of the largest Jewish populations in Europe. The fate of those Jews depended on many factors, including the local occupying authority and whether they were among the very few evacuated to the interior of the Soviet Union ahead of the invading forces. While scholars are still researching the scale of the Holocaust in Ukraine, they estimate at least one and a half million Jews were killed there. The Museum is in the process of gathering written records and oral testimony to fully tell the story of what happened in Ukraine during the Holocaust.

What we do know is that following the brutal invasion of the Soviet Union by the German military, special forces called Einsatzgruppen arrived with orders to kill civilians perceived to be enemies of Nazi Germany. They divided the local population in the occupied territories of the Soviet Union, identifying the Jews and recruiting local collaborators. Most Jews in Ukraine were shot to death close to where they lived, not deported to distant camps. Their executioners were German but also Ukrainian, Russian, and other local collaborators.

just spit ballin, I know. but, if we're really gonna suggest the nazis "liberated" Ukraine, and many there view it as a "positive," so much so they're still going all fanboy about it to this day, I sure do hope they're able to articulate that it's exclusively cuz the Soviets really were that bad, and even more explicitly cuz it has nothing to do with/despite the fact the nazis showed up and killed one and a half million Jews.

perhaps the nazi symbols are more about being anti-soviet/russia/putin than they are about being pro-nazi

i honestly don’t know

i do know that the “nazi” situation is much more nuanced and complex than you seem to appreciate

maybe, I guess. Particularly for the sake of spit ballin', or devil's advocacy.

and all my life I've otherwise thought nazis are just clear plain evil, with no nuance or complexity to it.

[ousdahl]

Some of them are trying to help you.

Some of us don't know why they bother.

likewise, illy.

the angle I really am trying to take here is, i'mjustheretohelp. As nicely and rationally as possible.

but, while I know it's tough wading through the propaganda and not being sure what to believe in real time, I honestly didn't expect raising concerns about nazis to be such a difficult sell, and I never in a million years thought this thread would go full "maybe the nazis were liberators."

With all due respect, I don't think you're intelligent enough to lecture or enlighten some of these guys on stuff like this. You're just not informed or smart enough to do so.

You should stay in the kiddie pool with me and cascadia. It's warm, not crowded, and someone comes and does animal balloons every afternoon in the summer when school is out.

maybe illy is right you guys.

Since I am otherwise unable to articulate anything here, I suggest you find some other poster who's willing to try articulating to you why our strategy with Ukraine really may be "poorly thought-out" and "courting global and domestic disaster."

if you DO find such a poster who might be so nice and rational and justheretohelp enough to help, I suggest you value as much, and avoid giving that poster too the Qusdahl treatment.

[KUTradition]

just spit ballin, I know. but, if we're really gonna suggest the nazis "liberated" Ukraine, and many there view it as a "positive," so much so they're still going all fanboy about it to this day, I sure do hope they're able to articulate that it's exclusively cuz the Soviets really were that bad, and even more explicitly cuz it has nothing to do with/despite the fact the nazis showed up and killed one and a half million Jews.

perhaps the nazi symbols are more about being anti-soviet/russia/putin than they are about being pro-nazi

i honestly don’t know

i do know that the “nazi” situation is much more nuanced and complex than you seem to appreciate

maybe, I guess. Particularly for the sake of spit ballin', or devil's advocacy.

and all my life I've otherwise thought nazis are just clear plain evil, with no nuance or complexity to it.

of course you do

you’re conflating, perhaps rightly so (i honestly don’t know), the people with their symbology

[japhy]

any concerns about ethno-nationalism in modern day Ukraine is just Russian propaganda.

What exactly was Russia concerned about? Was Ukraine threatening to invade Russia? Were they threatening to disrupt Russian trade? What threat would ethnographic-nationalism in Ukraine pose to Russian sovereignty or security? If Putin thought he would invade and conquer Ukraine in a week could he seriously have seen them as a military threat?

I dunno. Illy says I'm too dumb for this thread.

But, if you'd really like, I'll attempt to articulate what little I understand (about your questions, regarding Putin's state of mind and true intentions), if and only if you agree to one condition:

do you promise to not call me a Russian sympathizer if I do?

Please articulate.

If you believe that Putin had a justifiable cause for invasion of Ukraine; what is your preferred noun to use instead of "sympathizer".

[ousdahl]

ok, fine.

but, once again, I don't think Putin's invasion of Ukraine was justifiable, nor do I sympathize with the cause.

with that said, and without going on and on about stuff I've already tried to articulate but didn't get any listeners the first time around, lemme try to be as concise as possible:

I think Putin felt provoked.

Just like Obama said would happen!

[KUTradition]

just because nobody agrees with you doesn’t mean we didn’t “listen”

edit: i’d imagine many of us actually DO agree with you, that war is bad and that there should be alternatives to it

thing is, should and are are quite far apart in the real world when it comes to psychopaths (you’ve yet to offer a solution to dealing with murderous tyrants)

[ousdahl]

perhaps the nazi symbols are more about being anti-soviet/russia/putin than they are about being pro-nazi

i honestly don’t know

i do know that the “nazi” situation is much more nuanced and complex than you seem to appreciate

maybe, I guess. Particularly for the sake of spit ballin', or devil's advocacy.

and all my life I've otherwise thought nazis are just clear plain evil, with no nuance or complexity to it.

of course you do

you’re conflating, perhaps rightly so (i honestly don’t know), the people with their symbology

dude, it's the Ukrainians conflating the symbology with themselves.

[KUTradition]

maybe, I guess. Particularly for the sake of spit ballin', or devil's advocacy.

and all my life I've otherwise thought nazis are just clear plain evil, with no nuance or complexity to it.

of course you do

you’re conflating, perhaps rightly so (i honestly don’t know), the people with their symbology

dude, it's the Ukrainians conflating the symbology with themselves.

are they?

according to whom?

[ousdahl]

...according to the western media that covered them up until 2022 like "Ukraine has a nazi problem," then abandoned all that in favor of "Ukraine good Russia bad," and dismissed any further concerns about nazi problems in Ukraine as Russian propaganda, and avoid mentioning it any further, despite western media still unintentionally publishing plenty of evidence that Ukraine is full of nazis anyway.

[KUTradition]

the same western propaganda we’re not supposed to believe?

who are you? randy?

[ousdahl]

yea.

be skeptical of everything.

but, generally, I think some back page human interest piece from a comparative time of "peace" with no other good headlines to report, is prob more of an attempt at objective journalism, than when the war machine is in overdrive trying to manufacture popular support for yet another militant conflict escalating in real time.

[ousdahl]

just because nobody agrees with you doesn’t mean we didn’t “listen”

edit: i’d imagine many of us actually DO agree with you, that war is bad and that there should be alternatives to it

thing is, should and are are quite far apart in the real world when it comes to psychopaths (you’ve yet to offer a solution to dealing with murderous tyrants)

see, I've tried to offer a solution. A few different solutions, even.

Heck, you even responded to at least one, remember?

If Russia agreed to knock off their invasion bullshit if Ukraine agreed to not join nato, would you make that deal?

if that’s what Ukraine wants, absolutely

[japhy]

I think Putin felt provoked.

Putin does seem like a very sensitive guy so I suppose his feelings could have something to do with all of this. So what do you think provoked Putin?

[ousdahl]

I think Putin felt provoked.

Putin does seem like a very sensitive guy so I suppose his feelings could have something to do with all of this. So what do you think provoked Putin?

oh man. There's so many directions we could take this!

if you really wanna go full swallowing Putin propaganda like a rube about the semantics of "provoke," let's consider this most notoriousest of Kremlin spambots:

Barack Obama

Let's double down on the Russophile rhetoric and post a link straight from this big scary Russian state-sponsored website:

congress.gov

The White House announced a new $53 million aid package for Ukraine, which includes counter-mortar radar, radios, vehicles, patrol boats, body armor, helmets and night-vision goggles. But it stopped short of providing weapons or other lethal aid the Ukrainians have been seeking.
The decision reflects the Obama administration's long-standing concern that arming Ukraine would provoke Moscow into a further escalation that could drag Washington into a proxy war.

https://www.congress.gov/116/meeting/ho ... -SD994.pdf

[japhy]

I think Putin felt provoked.

Putin does seem like a very sensitive guy so I suppose his feelings could have something to do with all of this. So what do you think provoked Putin?

oh man. There's so many directions we could take this!

if you really wanna go full swallowing Putin propaganda like a rube about the semantics of "provoke," let's consider this most notoriousest of Kremlin spambots:

Barack Obama

Let's double down on the Russophile rhetoric and post a link straight from this big scary Russian state-sponsored website:

congress.gov

The White House announced a new $53 million aid package for Ukraine, which includes counter-mortar radar, radios, vehicles, patrol boats, body armor, helmets and night-vision goggles. But it stopped short of providing weapons or other lethal aid the Ukrainians have been seeking.
The decision reflects the Obama administration's long-standing concern that arming Ukraine would provoke Moscow into a further escalation that could drag Washington into a proxy war.

https://www.congress.gov/116/meeting/ho ... -SD994.pdf

So as I read this, you believe that $53M in non-lethal defensive aid was what provoked Putin to invade Ukraine almost a decade later?

[ousdahl]

close!

more like, if the best solution to resolving this Ukraine bullshit really is to blindly flood Ukraine with more and more weapons, hundreds of bajillions worth, then why the fuck didn't that pussy Obama do it sooner!

Right?

(Qusdahl say's he's otherwise a war criminal, to the tune of hundreds of thousands of bombs dropped pretty much everywhere BUT Ukraine, but that's not what we're discussing right now.)

for real tho, why do you think that administration thought arming Ukraine would provoke Moscow into a further escalation that could drag Washington into a proxy war?

When DID we start arming Ukraine?

And how are we so sure it like totally did NOT like totally provoke Moscow into a further escalation that dragged Washington into a proxy war?

[ousdahl]

also, that whole part about what provoked Putin almost a decade later...

according to that plucky Putin parrot and notorious Russian sympathizer, NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg, the Ukraine war actually started in 2014.

https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/opinions_211698.htm

[japhy]

close!

When DID we start arming Ukraine?

I want to know what you think provoked Putin, you said he was provoked.

Make your case. If there was other aid that provoked, tell me what it was.

[ousdahl]

for real? I thought that much was obvious.

but, if you really need me to, ok fine:

I think it may be not just more bad guy propaganda, but maybe some actual valid criticism, that our bajillions of dollars of tactical, and eventually lethal, aid to (Russia's oft-feuding neighbor) Ukraine, really possibly may have provoked Russia into a further escalation that really maybe did drag the United States into a proxy war...just like we thought would happen...in 2014.....

put another way, I think it's silly to believe that the US should be allowed to just militarily fuck around wherever we want, but there should never be any consequences expected. Do as I say not as I do! I think it's disingenuous to look at how we've handled Ukraine and refuse to even consider we might be, at the absolute very least, complicit.

I wish the US played more the role of international adult-in-the-room, and less the role of world's largest Brandon Miller, bringing weapons into an already sketchy situation then expecting the full SEC-player-of-the-year treatment when the shit hits the fan.

put another another way, I think our "strategy" in Ukraine -- such as it is -- is courting global and domestic disaster, is poorly thought-out, and is, inarguably, proof positive that RationalDC was right.

for real for real. Come on Japhy, we're over a year in, still no end in sight, already down hundreds of bajillions of your and my hard-earned tax dollars, and still little understanding beyond "Ukraine good Russia bad." How long did you insist with patriotic pride that we're totally gonna find WMDs in Iraq before you finally started to question that one too?

[japhy]

for real? I thought that much was obvious.

but, if you really need me to, ok fine:

I think it may be not just more bad guy propaganda, but maybe some actual valid criticism, that our bajillions of dollars of tactical, and eventually lethal, aid to (Russia's oft-feuding neighbor) Ukraine, really possibly may have provoked Russia into a further escalation that really maybe did drag the United States into a proxy war...just like we thought would happen...in 2014.....

put another way, I think it's silly to believe that the US should be allowed to just militarily fuck around wherever we want, but there should never be any consequences expected. Do as I say not as I do! I think it's disingenuous to look at how we've handled Ukraine and refuse to even consider we might be, at the absolute very least, complicit.

I wish the US played more the role of international adult-in-the-room, and less the role of world's largest Brandon Miller, bringing weapons into an already sketchy situation then expecting the full SEC-player-of-the-year treatment when the shit hits the fan.

put another another way, I think our "strategy" in Ukraine -- such as it is -- is courting global and domestic disaster, is poorly thought-out, and is, inarguably, proof positive that RationalDC was right.

for real for real. Come on Japhy, we're over a year in, still no end in sight, already down hundreds of bajillions of your and my hard-earned tax dollars, and still little understanding beyond "Ukraine good Russia bad." How long did you insist with patriotic pride that we're totally gonna find WMDs in Iraq before you finally started to question that one too?

So our military aid to Ukraine, after Russia invaded Ukraine, preemptively provoked the invasion?