Let’s have a war!

[japhy]

been trying to respond to this one, but it's so long. Lemme prune up all the quotes and stuff a little...

hey! we agree on something!

sort of...I guess the point of debate is that loaded word, "unprovoked." from my point of view, you seem determined to refuse to consider how any of Merica's own actions may have contributed to the situation. If you're gonna be so stubborn about that, and unwilling (or just unable?) to even consider as much, this thread just isn't gonna get anywhere.

So you are saying that we provoked Putin, but you are agreeing these that were not justifiable as reasons for the invasion of Ukraine?

So if you dismiss Putin's "justifications for invasion", why do you keep bringing them up? If they are not justifications for his violent invasion why do his conspiratorial rantings need to be rehashed over and over?

The reality is no one invaded Russia, Russia did invade Ukraine. So his "reasons" are based upon hypotheticals, which never happened.

Either you embrace his list of "provocations" as legit for his invasion or you don't, which is it?

[ousdahl]

you seem determined to refuse to consider how any of Merica's own actions may have contributed to the situation. If you're gonna be so stubborn about that, and unwilling (or just unable?) to even consider as much, this thread just isn't gonna get anywhere.



...sorry Japhy, but despite my efforts, I'm afraid I'm just not able to help you.

if you DO want help, I suggest you try DC. I get the feeling this entire thread might get an awful lot of closure if he stopped with the radio silence and just fleshed out his opinions here.

cuz, again, bear in mind, he's the one dood who apparently agrees with me. But, unlike me, you (and possibly even other posters too) might actually stop and consider what he has to say.

The only difference between DC and me is, I made the foolish mistake of actually trying to articulate my stance, while he at least read the writing on the wall and had the sense to go coy about it instead.

[japhy]

you seem determined to refuse to consider how any of Merica's own actions may have contributed to the situation. If you're gonna be so stubborn about that, and unwilling (or just unable?) to even consider as much, this thread just isn't gonna get anywhere.

Sorry to break the news to you but this thread has gone no where for a year.

Your can't separate Putin's claim of provocation from his claim of a legitimate reaction in his invasion. That is what he states were some of the reasons for his invasion.

Putin is not an independent actor in all of this? He didn't invade Russia of his own accord? We made him do it?

You say the provocations did not justify his invasion. And yet you want me to consider more information, more context.....because maybe we did "make" him invade Ukraine?

Why would I need to consider more information/context if the end goal is not to convince me that Putin's justification for invading Ukraine was a legitimate beef with the US?

Do you believe that Putin was justified in invading Ukraine because the US devil made him do it?

[japhy]

The only difference between DC and me is, I made the foolish mistake of actually trying to articulate my stance, while he at least read the writing on the wall and had the sense to go coy about it instead.

I think this statement has made all of my efforts worthwhile here today.

[KUTradition]

i don’t think DC’s stance is quite what Ousie thinks it is

could be wrong

[ousdahl]

right?!?!?!?!?!?!

at this point I'd take anything we can get

heck, I'd even be ok with LulzDC chiming in!

[ousdahl]

you seem determined to refuse to consider how any of Merica's own actions may have contributed to the situation. If you're gonna be so stubborn about that, and unwilling (or just unable?) to even consider as much, this thread just isn't gonna get anywhere.

Sorry to break the news to you but this thread has gone no where for a year.

Your can't separate Putin's claim of provocation from his claim of a legitimate reaction in his invasion. That is what he states were some of the reasons for his invasion.

Putin is not an independent actor in all of this? He didn't invade Russia of his own accord? We made him do it?

You say the provocations did not justify his invasion. And yet you want me to consider more information, more context.....because maybe we did "make" him invade Ukraine?

Why would I need to consider more information/context if the end goal is not to convince me that Putin's justification for invading Ukraine was a legitimate beef with the US?

Do you believe that Putin was justified in invading Ukraine because the US devil made him do it?

I think both these things can be true:

- Putin's rhetoric is bullshit, and in no way "justifies" the invasion
- the US's own fucking around is, was, and always has been, material to the escalation of the Ukraine war, all along.

if you struggle to comprehend that, again, I suggest you reach out to DC.

If you really expect me to keep trying to help...I know these tend to be futile, but why not...let's do another analogy!

say you're hanging out at...oh, say, an underground speak easy cantina at...oh, say, the corner of 4th and Worth Street. Who knows whether they actually have things like a liquor license, but that's beside the point right now.

You go up to some dood, get right in his face, bark "what's yer problem?", keep daring him to do something, stay in his face, back him up against the wall, until at some point, he finally starts swinging on you.

Then, you start acting like you really do expect the bouncer to just summarily believe you when you start crying, "but HE started it!"

That's all to say - that doesn't make it ok for the guy to be swinging on you. but that also doesn't mean it was ok for you to get in his face in the first place! Right?

And if the bouncer, as he's kicking you out and reminding you not to piss in the street, explains he's kicking you out cuz, "...dude but you totally provoked him," you think you might finally possess some scintilla of awareness and realize that maybe, just maybe, you WERE part of the problem all along?

Or are you gonna keep shouting at the bouncer that he too is just another Russian spam bot?

and, yes, I KNOW this thread hasn't gone anywhere for a year! That's why I persist in trying to bring some end to it! Trust me dude, I'm not among those here who get entirely too cozy with perpetuating endless wars that have no end game in sight.

[japhy]

you seem determined to refuse to consider how any of Merica's own actions may have contributed to the situation. If you're gonna be so stubborn about that, and unwilling (or just unable?) to even consider as much, this thread just isn't gonna get anywhere.

Sorry to break the news to you but this thread has gone no where for a year.

Your can't separate Putin's claim of provocation from his claim of a legitimate reaction in his invasion. That is what he states were some of the reasons for his invasion.

Putin is not an independent actor in all of this? He didn't invade Russia of his own accord? We made him do it?

You say the provocations did not justify his invasion. And yet you want me to consider more information, more context.....because maybe we did "make" him invade Ukraine?

Why would I need to consider more information/context if the end goal is not to convince me that Putin's justification for invading Ukraine was a legitimate beef with the US?

Do you believe that Putin was justified in invading Ukraine because the US devil made him do it?

I think both these things can be true:

- Putin's rhetoric is bullshit, and in no way "justifies" the invasion
- the US's own fucking around is, was, and always has been, material to the escalation of the Ukraine war, all along.

if you struggle to comprehend that, again, I suggest you reach out to DC.

See how easy that was! The invasion was not justified, the bullshit rhetoric out of Putin be damned. No need to spend a year talking about the mitigating circumstances and history of conflicts in the region and Nazis.

A bloody destructive invasion has happened, Putin did it, it's on bitches!

So now can we talk about the current issue in this war that is of consequence to us all and leave all the propoganda bullshit behind?

Is the current escalation of the war destabilizing the world?

Is the infusion of more volume and complexity of weapons into this conflict making things worser or better?

[Deleted User 863]

Q: you're just repeating yourself at this point.

This is so far beyond any meltdown I have ever seen on these boards. Has it been an entire year of this yet?

Take a break for all of our sakes. Especially your own.

[KUTradition]

Sorry to break the news to you but this thread has gone no where for a year.

Your can't separate Putin's claim of provocation from his claim of a legitimate reaction in his invasion. That is what he states were some of the reasons for his invasion.

Putin is not an independent actor in all of this? He didn't invade Russia of his own accord? We made him do it?

You say the provocations did not justify his invasion. And yet you want me to consider more information, more context.....because maybe we did "make" him invade Ukraine?

Why would I need to consider more information/context if the end goal is not to convince me that Putin's justification for invading Ukraine was a legitimate beef with the US?

Do you believe that Putin was justified in invading Ukraine because the US devil made him do it?

I think both these things can be true:

- Putin's rhetoric is bullshit, and in no way "justifies" the invasion
- the US's own fucking around is, was, and always has been, material to the escalation of the Ukraine war, all along.

if you struggle to comprehend that, again, I suggest you reach out to DC.

See how easy that was! The invasion was not justified, the bullshit rhetoric out of Putin be damned. No need to spend a year talking about the mitigating circumstances and history of conflicts in the region and Nazis.

A bloody destructive invasion has happened, Putin did it, it's on bitches!

So now can we talk about the current issue in this war that is of consequence to us all and leave all the propoganda bullshit behind?

Is the current escalation of the war destabilizing the world?

Is the infusion of more volume and complexity of weapons into this conflict making things worser or better?

i think a reasonable question to ask, at this point, is what would be the situation of the West hadn’t decided to provide aid?

and, would a similar decision be made if/when putin decides Moldova (or Poland) is next?

[ousdahl]

dude, you realize how many times I've called bullshit on Putin's rhetoric, right?

over and over and over and over again.

you realize how many times you've, whether tacitly or explicitly, kept screaming in the bouncer's face that you shouldn't be kicked out of the bar too? If you wanna get in dood's faces it's a matter of But Mah Rights, but if and when they swing on you about it, it's a matter of unprovoked unilateral aggression.

So now can we talk about the current issue in this war that is of consequence to us all and leave all the propoganda bullshit behind?

Yes! Please!

but, how DO we leave all the propaganda bullshit behind? I think the best course of action is to assume everything about the war has the potential to be propaganda, rather than picking and choosing what may or may not be propaganda, depending on which narrative you prefer.

Is the current escalation of the war destabilizing the world?

depends on who you ask?

if you're asking me, yea.

If you're asking DC, also yea.

If you're asking everybody else...well, as far as I can tell, it's either not destabilizing the world it's actually making the world more stablerer; or, it IS destabilizing the world but it's a small price to pay for freedom and democracy. Kinda like the logic of the best way to save civilians from war crimes is to carpet bomb more civilians. It's makes sense if you don't think about it.

Is the infusion of more volume and complexity of weapons into this conflict making things worser or better?

I dunno...does pouring gasoline on fire help to put the fire out?

heck, if we weren't ever ramping up the "volume and complexity of weapons into this conflict" the first place, does the conflict even become a conflict to begin with? Why do you think I keep bugging you to go to school on the Maidan revolution?

[KUTradition]

does pouring gasoline on fire help to put the fire out?

in the short term, no

in the long term? absolutely if the added intensity burns down the underlying fuel

[ousdahl]

i think a reasonable question to ask, at this point, is what would be the situation of the West hadn’t decided to provide aid?

[/quote]

for real, will somebody besides me try to make sense of the Maidan revolution?

and, would a similar decision be made if/when putin decides Moldova (or Poland) is next?

see, this is funny about the war rhetoric. How is simultaneously "but if we don't stop Putin in Ukraine then he's gonna invade Moldova and Poland and the rest of the whole entire world next!," and "but Putin is a bumbling idiot who's so dumb and poorly-equipped that he doesn't even have the resources to win in Ukraine!"

that's all to say, let's try to consider options to DE-escalate Ukraine either way, rather than assume the only option to prevent further escalation is further escalation.

[ousdahl]

does pouring gasoline on fire help to put the fire out?

in the short term, no

in the long term? absolutely if the added intensity burns down the underlying fuel

why not just hit it with some water instead?

Or like, sand.

or baking soda.

Or like, ANYTHING besides more gasoline! Let's not pretend the best end game in Ukraine is to burn Ukraine to the ground. (heads up, cuz that's what continuing to flood Ukraine with weapons will do!)

Or shit, gimme enough coors lites and I'll piss it out!

[japhy]

Is the current escalation of the war destabilizing the world?

depends on who you ask?

if you're asking me, yea.

If you're asking DC, also yea.

Wait, did you just inadvertently tell us that DC is your sock?

My mind is blown, I think we need another thread just to discuss this! This changes EVERYTHING!

[KUTradition]

i think a reasonable question to ask, at this point, is what would be the situation of the West hadn’t decided to provide aid?

for real, will somebody besides me try to make sense of the Maidan revolution?

and, would a similar decision be made if/when putin decides Moldova (or Poland) is next?

see, this is funny about the war rhetoric. How is simultaneously "but if we don't stop Putin in Ukraine then he's gonna invade Moldova and Poland and the rest of the whole entire world next!," and "but Putin is a bumbling idiot who's so dumb and poorly-equipped that he doesn't even have the resources to win in Ukraine!"

that's all to say, let's try to consider options to DE-escalate Ukraine either way, rather than assume the only option to prevent further escalation is further escalation.
[/quote]
just stop

that’s not at all what i said or was suggesting (re: further escalation)

[KUTradition]

does pouring gasoline on fire help to put the fire out?

in the short term, no

in the long term? absolutely if the added intensity burns down the underlying fuel

why not just hit it with some water instead?

Or like, sand.

or baking soda.

Or like, ANYTHING besides more gasoline! Let's not pretend the best end game in Ukraine is to burn Ukraine to the ground. (heads up, cuz that's what continuing to flood Ukraine with weapons will do!)

Or shit, gimme enough coors lites and I'll piss it out!

do you ever act like an adult?

[japhy]

Let's not pretend the best end game in Ukraine is to burn Ukraine to the ground. (heads up, cuz that's what continuing to flood Ukraine with weapons will do!)

Head's up; cut off weapons to Ukraine and Putin burns an unarmed Ukraine to the ground, the only difference being there will be a lot less Wagner casualties.

The only way Ukraine is not burned to the ground now, is for Putin to remove his troops from Ukraine. If he decided to do that tomorrow, he could do it and end the war the same day.

[ousdahl]

see, despite me never acting like an adult in this thread, I would at least try to if I was a world leader.

but, speaking of cutting off weapons to Ukraine and Putin removing his troops from Ukraine and ending the war in the same day...

I would call up Putin on the most visible world stage possible and say, "hey Vlad...if I get Merica/NATO to stop giving weapons to the neighbors you've feuded with since always, will you knock your own shit off with those neighbors too?"

maybe it wouldn't work. I dunno how how it would hurt to at least try, tho.

But, here's the thing:

maybe it WOULD work!

Maybe giving weapons to his asshole neighbors is what made him feel like he had to invade in the first place!

...or, maybe it wouldn't work, in which case - let's all meet up in the Empire, pour a round of Manhattans, and try our best to enjoy the flash.

[japhy]

Didn't China already call for peace talks? How did it go? Who would be the best person to call Putin and ask for peace talks?

If Russia unilaterally ceased fire and backed up that might be an easy start. Less need to talk if you are making a show of good faith that you do not intend to destroy Ukraine and burn it to the ground at all cost.

The biggest reason that increased weapons on the Ukrainian side are causing more bloodshed is because the Russians keep moving forward into the fire. They are the aggressor, the invader. If they stopped pressing the war forward and started stepping back, like all the way to the Russian border, they would be under a lot less threat.