Let’s have a war!

[Sparko]

well if that's news to you, we can only imagine how surprised you're gonna be to learn the US used to consider nazis to be the bad guys.

If Nazis were our biggest problem in Ukraine,
you'd have a point.

They aren't,
so you don't.

From the same playbook - literally the same one - as the right-wing bad faith nonsense around using extremely rare instances of boys competing in girls' sports to advance anti-trans agendas.

It is weird to see them rooting for the East German women's Sport Federation this time.

[DCHawk1]

Instructors.
Headline is misleading.

Correct.

See also, Vietnam 1955-1960.

[ousdahl]

drink!

https://www.politico.eu/article/fight-a ... n-germany/

[ousdahl]

Let’s try for an episode of “remember when progressives were actually…well…progressive?”

Bernie has anti-war demonstrators outside his office arrested for holding signs featuring a Bernie quote

https://x.com/codepink/status/170959194 ... 8ZiR9WCcTg

I mean look at this kremlin propaganda. Straight from Putin’s own mouth!



But, since you hawks are at least willing to pretend to be a little less hawkish after the fact, and at least criticize US (and NATO!) warmongering in hindsight, let’s review this Russian disinformation from back when maybe you won’t call it Russian disinformation, and just call it a “smart take” instead - published right before the illegal Russian invasion:



https://www.thenation.com/article/polit ... ine/tnamp/

Now, if you’ll excuse me, I have to go rsvp to my neighbor’s Halloween party

[Sparko]

That post is old, off the mark, and irrelvant post 2014. Calling someone a hawk for defending Ukraine after being invaded is sophistry. Do us a favor and read the list of Russian crimes against humanity compiled by doves at the UN since February 2022. Then apologize to Ukraine.

[jfish26]

That post is old, off the mark, and irrelvant post 2014. Calling someone a hawk for defending Ukraine after being invaded is sophistry. Do us a favor and read the list of Russian crimes against humanity compiled by doves at the UN since February 2022. Then apologize to Ukraine.

Victim-blaming is not any less gross in this instance than it is when people say things like "she shouldn't have worn tight clothes."

[ousdahl]

“A simplistic refusal to recognize the complex roots of the tensions of the region undermines the ability of negotiators to reach a peaceful resolution.”

But keep ignoring that and sticking to your comic book narratives and doubling down on endless war.

And fish, with all due respect, your analogies are just not that good.

[ousdahl]

well if that's news to you, we can only imagine how surprised you're gonna be to learn the US used to consider nazis to be the bad guys.

If Nazis were our biggest problem in Ukraine,
you'd have a point.

They aren't,
so you don't.

From the same playbook - literally the same one - as the right-wing bad faith nonsense around using extremely rare instances of boys competing in girls' sports to advance anti-trans agendas.

For this analogy to work, one must presuppose the issue of Ukrainian Nazis is as “extrmely rare” as the issue of boys competing in girls’ sports to advance anti-trans agendas.

And for one to presuppose that, it seems to require one to summarily bury their head in sand about the dozens of examples of Ukrainian Nazis that DCHawk1 and I have provided.

Or, if you have something to indicate the issue of Ukrainian Nazis really is that rare, please do share it. I’d be delighted to see it! I don’t want it to be true. And, as I have before, I’d be more than willing to eat that crauw.

Or, if you might even be willing to just admit you DON’T have such evidence to counter the evidence, and it’s mostly just wishful thinking (as a result of WMDs in Iraq-style conditioning), I’d appreciate the humility, and will make the effort to stop fussing so much about it too. Exhibit that much humility, and I will too.

Teeing this one up for you, fish (and anyone else!). While the war itself still has no end in sight, this is your chance to at least put an end to this thread.

[jfish26]

“A simplistic refusal to recognize the complex roots of the tensions of the region undermines the ability of negotiators to reach a peaceful resolution.”

But keep ignoring that and sticking to your comic book narratives and doubling down on endless war.

And fish, with all due respect, your analogies are just not that good.

As Andrew Gillum might say, it’s not that I think you’re a Putin stan. It’s that the Putin stans think you’re a Putin stan.

Whether you share in their fundamental ideology or not, you ARE adopting the talking points Putin wants people to adopt.

[jfish26]

If Nazis were our biggest problem in Ukraine,
you'd have a point.

They aren't,
so you don't.

From the same playbook - literally the same one - as the right-wing bad faith nonsense around using extremely rare instances of boys competing in girls' sports to advance anti-trans agendas.

For this analogy to work, one must presuppose the issue of Ukrainian Nazis is as “extrmely rare” as the issue of boys competing in girls’ sports to advance anti-trans agendas.

And for one to presuppose that, it seems to require one to summarily bury their head in sand about the dozens of examples of Ukrainian Nazis that DCHawk1 and I have provided.

Or, if you have something to indicate the issue of Ukrainian Nazis really is that rare, please do share it. I’d be delighted to see it! I don’t want it to be true. And, as I have before, I’d be more than willing to eat that crauw.

Or, if you might even be willing to just admit you DON’T have such evidence to counter the evidence, and it’s mostly just wishful thinking (as a result of WMDs in Iraq-style conditioning), I’d appreciate the humility, and will make the effort to stop fussing so much about it too. Exhibit that much humility, and I will too.

Teeing this one up for you, fish (and anyone else!). While the war itself still has no end in sight, this is your chance to at least put an end to this thread.

You are now doing the thing where you are requiring your opponent to prove a negative, as table stakes.

[ousdahl]

No!

Fuck Putin!

And in case you haven’t noticed - and let’s face it, you very willfully haven’t noticed! - you’re stanning for a bunch of literal fucking Nazis.

Go actually read that Bernie article and get back to me, please.

[ousdahl]

From the same playbook - literally the same one - as the right-wing bad faith nonsense around using extremely rare instances of boys competing in girls' sports to advance anti-trans agendas.

For this analogy to work, one must presuppose the issue of Ukrainian Nazis is as “extrmely rare” as the issue of boys competing in girls’ sports to advance anti-trans agendas.

And for one to presuppose that, it seems to require one to summarily bury their head in sand about the dozens of examples of Ukrainian Nazis that DCHawk1 and I have provided.

Or, if you have something to indicate the issue of Ukrainian Nazis really is that rare, please do share it. I’d be delighted to see it! I don’t want it to be true. And, as I have before, I’d be more than willing to eat that crauw.

Or, if you might even be willing to just admit you DON’T have such evidence to counter the evidence, and it’s mostly just wishful thinking (as a result of WMDs in Iraq-style conditioning), I’d appreciate the humility, and will make the effort to stop fussing so much about it too. Exhibit that much humility, and I will too.

Teeing this one up for you, fish (and anyone else!). While the war itself still has no end in sight, this is your chance to at least put an end to this thread.

You are now doing the thing where you are requiring your opponent to prove a negative, as table stakes.

OK.

Weak cop out of a response.

Then prove this is really about the freedom and democracy of the Ukrainian people. That’s not a negative, right?

…just like the Iraqi people were surely gonna welcome us as liberators, right Dick?

[KUTradition]

jfc

[jfish26]

No!

Fuck Putin!

And in case you haven’t noticed - and let’s face it, you very willfully haven’t noticed! - you’re stanning for a bunch of literal fucking Nazis.

Go actually read that Bernie article and get back to me, please.

It’s weird to me that you both (1) use the United States’ flimsy justification for putting boots on the ground in Iraq to criticize the United States’ remote support of Ukraine, and also (2) suggest that maybe Russia was somewhat a little justified in invading Ukraine because of “nazis” or “historical tensions” or something.

[Sparko]

Due to Trump's actions weakening of NATO, Putin really believed he could walk into Kyiv. The tepid response to the invasions of Georgia and Crimea did not help. There, the weak-kneed accommodationists put the "spheres of influence" Kissinger concepts into play. Lebensraum seems so reasonable if you don't want to defend people.

[jfish26]

Due to Trump's actions weakening of NATO, Putin really believed he could walk into Kyiv. The tepid response to the invasions of Georgia and Crimea did not help. There, the weak-kneed accommodationists put the "spheres of influence" Kissinger concepts into play. Lebensraum seems so reasonable if you don't want to defend people.

One might go so far as to say Putin panicked into invading Ukraine because, having lost the Puppet in Chief, he felt he had to strike before America was fully back to her senses.

[KUTradition]

Due to Trump's actions weakening of NATO, Putin really believed he could walk into Kyiv. The tepid response to the invasions of Georgia and Crimea did not help. There, the weak-kneed accommodationists put the "spheres of influence" Kissinger concepts into play. Lebensraum seems so reasonable if you don't want to defend people.

One might go so far as to say Putin panicked into invading Ukraine because, having lost the Puppet in Chief, he felt he had to strike before America was fully back to her senses.

i think there’s a lot of truth to this

he calculated that trumps damage to the international order was sufficient enough to weaken NATO to the point where the only ramifications would be a veritable slap on the wrist

[jfish26]

Due to Trump's actions weakening of NATO, Putin really believed he could walk into Kyiv. The tepid response to the invasions of Georgia and Crimea did not help. There, the weak-kneed accommodationists put the "spheres of influence" Kissinger concepts into play. Lebensraum seems so reasonable if you don't want to defend people.

One might go so far as to say Putin panicked into invading Ukraine because, having lost the Puppet in Chief, he felt he had to strike before America was fully back to her senses.

i think there’s a lot of truth to this

he calculated that trumps damage to the international order was sufficient enough to weaken NATO to the point where the only ramifications would be a veritable slap on the wrist

And he gambled that an attack wouldn’t be sufficiently galvanizing. Gambled and lost. And instead of just changing his shorts and resuming life, albeit with some shit on his leg, he’s staying committed to the bit.

[ousdahl]

No!

Fuck Putin!

And in case you haven’t noticed - and let’s face it, you very willfully haven’t noticed! - you’re stanning for a bunch of literal fucking Nazis.

Go actually read that Bernie article and get back to me, please.

It’s weird to me that you both (1) use the United States’ flimsy justification for putting boots on the ground in Iraq to criticize the United States’ remote support of Ukraine, and also (2) suggest that maybe Russia was somewhat a little justified in invading Ukraine because of “nazis” or “historical tensions” or something.

1. It’s a “fool me once” sorta thing. Post-Iraq (and Afghanistan!), the US war machine’s credibility was down the drain. So when, mere months after hastily exiting Afghanistan (but not really), to start pushing rhetoric like "stand with Ukraine no matter how long it takes! just seemed, to use your own word - flimsy.

and yet, here we are, again.

2. I haven't justified a goddamn thing! Fucking spare me that gaslighting bullshit, please! Let me ONCE AGAIN condemn Putin and the Russian invasion of Ukraine!

To put it simply, even if Russia was not ruled by a corrupt authoritarian leader like Vladimir Putin, Russia, like the United States, would still have an interest in the security policies of its neighbors. Does anyone really believe that the United States would not have something to say if, for example, Mexico was to form a military alliance with a U.S. adversary?

That's not justification. That's just trying to understand global politics on some objective level, rather than the Team America World Police 1-Dimensional lenses. You gotta realize how very stubborn you're being by insisting upon those lenses, which, at the end of the day, are the same flimsy lenses that derped us on WMDs in Iraq.

[Sparko]

Dead horse meet Ous.