Let’s have a war!

[Shirley]

Overwhelming grief in Ukrainian village hit by strike: ‘There’s no point in living’

Editors’ note: This story contains graphic images of dead bodies, including children.

HROZA, Ukraine — So many people were killed in a Russian missile strike here Thursday that workers with excavators have begun clearing trees and bushes to expand the size of the cemetery.

At least 52 people have been declared dead, and as body identification got underway Friday, it became apparent that the vast majority of them were civilians, making the hit on Hroza one of the deadliest civilian strikes of the war.

Residents had been attending a funeral reception for a local soldier, Andriy Kozyr, when the missile hit, reducing the cafe and grocery store where they had gathered into a pile of rubble and killing about a sixth of the village population.

...In the village on Friday, survivors expressed overwhelming grief, confusion and suspicion as they tried to make sense of why a place with no strategic value in the war had suffered such destruction.

Locals said Kozyr’s widow and other relatives were among the dead. At least one child was killed, and two others were missing Friday.

The bodies, which volunteers and rescue workers had dragged out of the rubble, were all transferred to the regional capital of Kharkiv for identification, which may require DNA testing in cases of mutilation.

Morgue workers said that they had seen no evidence of multiple military personnel among the dead and that most victims appeared to be older. Washington Post reporters observing the morgue examinations saw only one of the dead wearing a military uniform.

Many villagers said they suspect a Russian sympathizer living among them informed the Russian military about a planned gathering for a fallen soldier.

Hroza is no more than a tiny stretch of land some 20 miles from the front-line city of Kupyansk. After Russia launched its full-scale invasion in February 2022, the village was held under Russian occupation until Ukrainian troops liberated it in a surprise counteroffensive last fall. But locals said some living in Hroza remain loyal to Moscow.

“This is not a coincidence,” said Serhiy Pletinka, 34, a Ukrainian soldier home on leave from the southern front. His parents live across from the cafe, and when the strike occurred, he rushed outside to help. He said many of the bodies were beyond recognition. One, his former teacher and his friend’s father, was identified only by the blue jeans he always wore, he said. Another was a soldier he knew had gone on leave to attend the funeral.

Lyuba Savchenko, 63, and Inessa Troshena, 58, lost their sister Halya Chykala, 62, and four cousins in Thursday’s strike. The pair were among the weeping families surveying the cemetery in Hroza on Friday morning, some using sticks and tape to cordon off where they hope to bury their dead relatives, leaving notes to reserve the space. The cracking sound of two more incoming artillery attacks landing nearby filled the air.

“What else could it be?” Savchenko replied when asked if she, too, believed that a local collaborator had informed Russian forces about the funeral reception, prompting the strike.

...The morgue reflected the horrors of the massacre in Hroza. Blood streaked the floors as dozens of workers dressed in white gowns and medical gloves sifted through piles of bodies and parts of bodies that had been severed by the powerful blast.

Workers held up a foot stuck to a shoe to try to match it to a man in gray jeans. Others tried to match a female hand to another victim.

There were so many body bags that they had to be laid out in the hallway, some stacked for lack of space. One piece of a limb sat in a cardboard box on the front steps.

In one room, mangled flesh sat on a metal table awaiting inspection. At the next table over, a morgue worker narrated his examination of a headless torso and legs while his colleagues recorded notes in the corner.

The workers were careful to mark down full descriptions — small details like the French manicure they saw on one victim or the gold tooth on another could help provide closure for relatives who may not otherwise be able to identify their loved ones.

Back in Hroza, stunned civilians returned to the scene of the attack.

Yurii Chykala, the husband of Halya, whose sisters had been looking for a burial spot, said he, too, believed a local betrayed them. “It was a very precise shot,” he said, “so someone here did it. I don’t know who.”

He said he had found his wife Thursday, dead but still warm, lying outside, burned with a shrapnel wound to her head. “There’s no point in living anymore,” he said.

He didn’t sleep all night and planned to do nothing but drink for the next three days, he said.
“There’s an emptiness in my soul. Just emptiness,” he added. “Yesterday, I was painting the house, she was helping me hold my brush. … My wife had put the buckwheat on the table to cook it later. I see it, it’s there. But she isn’t.”

Across the street, Lyuba Pletinka, 61, whose son Serhiy assisted in the rescue efforts, said that most of the village had learned about the funeral plans by word of mouth last month and that she is “100 percent sure someone passed on that information” to the Russians. Sitting on the bench outside her simple white-and-green house, she said she suspects some 50 percent of the village may harbor pro-Russian sentiments.

Just then, a man in a black jacket walked by, hardly glancing at the strike site. Pletinka went quiet and then nodded her head in his direction to indicate she believed he was among them. During occupation, she said, Russian forces held her and her husband at gunpoint to force them to share their crops with the occupying soldiers. That man, she said, shared with them willingly and also reported their son — then a civilian — as a former soldier who had fought in the country’s east in 2014. Serhiy was then captured as a Russian prisoner of war, she said, but was eventually released and rejoined the Ukrainian military.

Her neighbor, Pavlo Miller, 72, stopped by to check on her. He was sleeping when the strike hit and went outside only to find chaos. Like many others, he said he believed a Russian collaborator called in the strike. “We kind of even know who,” he said.

Their other neighbor, Valentina Koyizenko, 73, who lost several close friends in the strike, said she also believed “someone spilled information” to the Russians...

[jfish26]

Dude, western leaders were OuTrAGeD that Macron had the audacity to talk to him. Yet another point you’re willfully avoiding!

An Apollo 13 quote comes to mind, as to your general thing here: "We are on number eight. You're talking about number six hundred ninety-two."

The person with the most power, in the entire world, to end the fighting right now, could do so very easily. All he has to do is leave.

You can say FUCK PUTIN or whatever as much as you want, but the fact is that talking points that distract from this reality simply are pro-Putin talking points.

dude, this is just more gaslighting.

Specifically which of my talking points do you think are pro-Putin? That I wish he would take his ball and go home and somehow be convicted of war crimes even more than you?

realistically how do you expect that to happen?

let's try this again:

if Putin agreed to a full retreat if NATO agreed to stop flooding Ukraine with weapons too, would you make that deal?

yes or no.

come on bro. I answered when you put me on the spot for some "yes or no" bullshit, so kindly return the favor, please.

I don’t know what “flooding Ukraine with weapons” means exactly.

Would I expect Ukraine to agree to a deal that involves committing to do anything less than maintain a potent defensive readiness posture? Absolutely not.

Why in the world would Ukraine trust Russia not to invade again, when it’s done so twice in ten years?

[ousdahl]

I don’t know what “flooding Ukraine with weapons” means exactly.

boy, you sure don't.

[ousdahl]

sorry, maybe that was snarky.

since you kind of pretty much answered my question I guess, let's try to modify it a bit:

for the sake of Ukraine, would you have never had nato start fucking around there to begin with if it meant Putin would have never started pushing back?

I know I know, that's just pro-Putin. We're not even allowed to say "provoke" any more! Even though I've provided example after example of western leaders saying precisely that - that everybody knew expanding NATO to Ukraine would provoke Russia into retaliating - until, in February 2022, all of those "actual objective facts" that trad speaks of magically disappeared, and became bad guy propaganda instead.

[jfish26]

I don’t know what “flooding Ukraine with weapons” means exactly.

boy, you sure don't.

I meant what I said. “flooding Ukraine with weapons” could mean lots of different things - lots of different degrees of things. So when you back me into a corner with a question that is based on an imprecise assumption, I’m going to qualify my answer by saying I don’t know what the fuck the assumption means.

[jfish26]

sorry, maybe that was snarky.

since you kind of pretty much answered my question I guess, let's try to modify it a bit:

for the sake of Ukraine, would you have never had nato start fucking around there to begin with if it meant Putin would have never started pushing back?

I know I know, that's just pro-Putin. We're not even allowed to say "provoke" any more! Even though I've provided example after example of western leaders saying precisely that - that everybody knew expanding NATO to Ukraine would provoke Russia into retaliating - until, in February 2022, all of those "actual objective facts" that trad speaks of magically disappeared, and became bad guy propaganda instead.

We’re still taking too many things and putting them in a blender here.

I do not know nearly enough about Eastern European politics to answer the question I think you’re asking.

I do think it appears to be based on a false premise - knowing what we do know about Putin, I don’t have a lot of confidence that he would have left Ukraine alone if the West had just stayed out.

Fundamentally, I absolutely know that the one guy with the most power, in the entire world, to end the fighting immediately, is choosing not to do so.

[KUTradition]

sorry, maybe that was snarky.

since you kind of pretty much answered my question I guess, let's try to modify it a bit:

for the sake of Ukraine, would you have never had nato start fucking around there to begin with if it meant Putin would have never started pushing back?

I know I know, that's just pro-Putin. We're not even allowed to say "provoke" any more! Even though I've provided example after example of western leaders saying precisely that - that everybody knew expanding NATO to Ukraine would provoke Russia into retaliating - until, in February 2022, all of those "actual objective facts" that trad speaks of magically disappeared, and became bad guy propaganda instead.

so, weapons were being funneled into Ukraine before 2014?

huh…learn something new everyday

[KUTradition]

nothing like throwing as much shit against the wall as possible to see what sticks

and throw in a few juvenile jokes just for fun since this is a discussion about war, war crimes, and people dying

quality stuff, q

[Sparko]

Worse, Russia and Iran seem to want to divert American attention and arms to Israel. This is why we must support Ukraine and complete the destruction of Putinism.

[Shirley]

Conflict has broken out in Gaza and Israel. This may make it easier for Republicans to block aid to Ukraine.

[jfish26]

Conflict has broken out in Gaza and Israel. This may make it easier for Republicans to block aid to Ukraine.

Gee I wonder who this serves.

[Shirley]

Conflict has broken out in Gaza and Israel. This may make it easier for Republicans to block aid to Ukraine.

Gee I wonder who this serves.

Can I buy a hint, or phone a friend?

[mjl2]

https://x.com/Gerashchenko_en/status/17 ... 00890?s=20

[ousdahl]

No country in the world should be expected to give leniency to the terrorists who come from foreign lands and destroy cities and people.

We also know that even the most insidious enemy can be defeated and driven from vour land

[jfish26]

Put a pin in this one.

https://x.com/p_kallioniemi/status/1711 ... q_-8Yt1KMA

1) Russia will promote themselves as mediator in the Israel-Palestine conflict, and also start spreading propaganda about how they've wanted peace in Ukraine but the West has prevented this.

2) Spread of fake news and disinformation will absolutely explode, and most of this material will be taken out of context. Old videos from Syria, Palestine, etc. will go viral, and simpletons like @NickGriffinBU will share content from video games.

3) MAGA gang and other political movements based on lies and grifting will use the disinformation to promote their agenda, and once they're exposed, they will move on to the next lie. There will be absolutely no accountability.

4) This same group will also try to tie the situation in Israel to the war in Ukraine. This has already started by people claiming that the weapons intended to Ukraine were actually sold to Hamas. Community Notes will appear too late to have any real impact.

These accounts will be then amplified by Russian troll farms, and their ultimate goal is to reduce the humanitarian and military aid to Ukraine and also to move the focus away from the Russo-Ukrainian War. One should remember, that Russia has been actively destabilizing the situation in the Middle East, and they've also collaborated with Hezbollah in Syria and met with Hamas leaders several times in the last year. Hezbollah is also closely tied to Iran, a country that's sending Shahed drones to Russia to support their invasion in Ukraine.

[Shirley]

Put a pin in this one.

https://x.com/p_kallioniemi/status/1711 ... q_-8Yt1KMA

1) Russia will promote themselves as mediator in the Israel-Palestine conflict, and also start spreading propaganda about how they've wanted peace in Ukraine but the West has prevented this.

2) Spread of fake news and disinformation will absolutely explode, and most of this material will be taken out of context. Old videos from Syria, Palestine, etc. will go viral, and simpletons like @NickGriffinBU will share content from video games.

3) MAGA gang and other political movements based on lies and grifting will use the disinformation to promote their agenda, and once they're exposed, they will move on to the next lie. There will be absolutely no accountability.

4) This same group will also try to tie the situation in Israel to the war in Ukraine. This has already started by people claiming that the weapons intended to Ukraine were actually sold to Hamas. Community Notes will appear too late to have any real impact.

These accounts will be then amplified by Russian troll farms, and their ultimate goal is to reduce the humanitarian and military aid to Ukraine and also to move the focus away from the Russo-Ukrainian War. One should remember, that Russia has been actively destabilizing the situation in the Middle East, and they've also collaborated with Hezbollah in Syria and met with Hamas leaders several times in the last year. Hezbollah is also closely tied to Iran, a country that's sending Shahed drones to Russia to support their invasion in Ukraine.

And the pro-Russia, pro-Putin republicans like Tuberville and those already opposing aide to Ukraine will be only too happy to amplify the lies and propaganda while sending out fund-raising emails and letters to the chronically aggrieved.

[Shirley]

This has been on the back of my mind, and imo, Mitchell says it well.

If Xi intends to invade Taiwan, now is the time.

October 9, 2023-The war in Israel has created an opportunity for Xi to invade Taiwan. While I still do not think that is very likely, this is the moment and if China does not invade now, their threats may be taken less seriously in the future.

[Sparko]

China has absolutely no need to not play the long game in Taiwan. Except for hubris.

[ousdahl]

there it is.

[Sparko]

Betting on war and evil is not a risk thus far on human history. But Sukhoi and others are not doing so well Q