Let’s have a war!

[DeletedUser]

I don't understand what he is accomplishing by the endless crusade.

If it was making his stance known, we get it. We have understood what he thinks for well over a year.

If it's changing everyone's minds and hoping we all validate his opinion by suddenly sharing it, then I think it's time to give up. Because this repeat performance (daily) is fucking annoying.

As an adult, I am comfortable having opinions that are different than other adults. I don't feel the need to try to change everyone's mind who doesn't agree. The rehashing is tiresome and pointless. Move on.

[RainbowsandUnicorns]

also, after getting the chance to read the Al Jazeera article, it kinda seems click bait-y.

I mean, if we're allowed to just ask questions: is Zelensky is charting a comprehensive plan to end war with Russia? Or is it just a comprehensive plan "for how Kyiv believes the war with Russia should end"? That seems like it could be two very different things. Either way, the article is pretty light on details.

and, speaking of peace...the whole part on the summit:

But some key countries that attended, such as India, did not agree and others, such as Russia’s ally China, boycotted the summit in protest at Moscow not being invited.


Got curious about the summit, and, found another article from the same source:


Which countries did not sign on?

India, Mexico, Saudi Arabia, South Africa, Thailand, Indonesia and the United Arab Emirates attended the summit, represented by foreign ministers and envoys, but were among those who did not sign the joint communique.

Brazil attended the Ukraine summit as an observer, but did not back the communique.

Russia was not invited to the summit, which Moscow dismissed as “futile”. China also did not attend the two-day event. Pakistan, which counts China as its closest ally, was invited but chose not to attend.

Why did they not sign on?

India: In a statement, Secretary (West) of India’s Ministry of External Affairs Pavan Kapoor said that New Delhi decided to avoid association with the joint communique because of Russia’s absence from the summit. He said India believes that peace in Ukraine requires bringing together “all stakeholders and a sincere and practical engagement between the two parties to the conflict”.

Saudi Arabia: Prince Faisal bin Farhan al Saud, the foreign minister of Saudi Arabia, shared similar concerns while delivering his statement at the summit. “We believe it is important that the international community encourage any step towards serious negotiations, which will require difficult compromises as part of a roadmap that leads to peace,” he said. “And here, it is essential to emphasise that any credible process will need Russia’s participation.”

South Africa: South Africa’s reasons for not backing the communique were different. The country’s National Security Advisor Sydney Mufamadi wrote in a statement that “it was surprising that at this conference, Israel is present and participating”, five days after a United Nations-backed commission accused Israel of committing war crimes against Palestinians. Mufamadi questioned the legitimacy of a communique that its sponsors argued was driven by “respect for international law” when Israel has been accused by many UN officials of violating international law. South Africa has accused Israel of genocide in Gaza in a case at the International Court of Justice.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/6/1 ... communique.

I also wonder if the timing of these "plan to end war" sorta headlines coincides with the U.S. presidential debate.

"also, after getting the chance to read the Al Jazeera article, it kinda seems click bait-y" - " the article is pretty light on details".

I don't read all of your posts but if I am recalling correctly, that's the only Al Jazeera article you have read that you expressed you felt that way about. True? Not true? Reason why I am asking, I tend to feel that way about most if not all of their articles. Now that being said, I find that to be true of most news sources. Why? Because that's exactly what the majority of them do/are - WITH AN AGENDA/BIAS that is often successful in being persuasive - their objective/goal.

Moving on.....

My relative who LIVED (past tense because he was evacuated from his home) in northern Israel posts something on his Instagram story on average every couple of days. He hasn't posted anything in a while. Without giving it TOO much thought, I came up with a list of Gutter's 5 assumptions of the day.
1. He's dead.
2. He hasn't had anything he felt was worth sharing.
3. He doesn't want someone/some people to know where he is and what he is (and isn't) doing so he's not posting anything.
4. He is too busy to post anything.
5. He has been taken hostage by Hezbollah/Hizballah, Hamas, ISIS, PIJ, whoever.

[KUTradition]

gee…maybe it’s light on details since there aren’t many details available (since, ya know, the plan is still being formed)?

so dumb

[jfish26]

I don't understand what he is accomplishing by the endless crusade.

If it was making his stance known, we get it. We have understood what he thinks for well over a year.

If it's changing everyone's minds and hoping we all validate his opinion by suddenly sharing it, then I think it's time to give up. Because this repeat performance (daily) is fucking annoying.

As an adult, I am comfortable having opinions that are different than other adults. I don't feel the need to try to change everyone's mind who doesn't agree. The rehashing is tiresome and pointless. Move on.

I think it’s a really interesting window into how all of this works.

The whole messaging program is to get people emotionally committed to a conclusion strongly enough to bulldoze even their own principles and interests backward from that conclusion.

This is how we keep ending up in these situations where intelligent and well-meaning people deeply hold beliefs that are entirely contrary to their stated principles and interests.

[TDub]

I don't understand what he is accomplishing by the endless crusade.

If it was making his stance known, we get it. We have understood what he thinks for well over a year.

If it's changing everyone's minds and hoping we all validate his opinion by suddenly sharing it, then I think it's time to give up. Because this repeat performance (daily) is fucking annoying.

As an adult, I am comfortable having opinions that are different than other adults. I don't feel the need to try to change everyone's mind who doesn't agree. The rehashing is tiresome and pointless. Move on.

I think it’s a really interesting window into how all of this works.

The whole messaging program is to get people emotionally committed to a conclusion strongly enough to bulldoze even their own principles and interests backward from that conclusion.

This is how we keep ending up in these situations where intelligent and well-meaning people deeply hold beliefs that are entirely contrary to their stated principles and interests.

define intelligent


very potential there is intelligence, but there have been struggles with many basic adult type tasks through the years.

[DeletedUser]

I don't understand what he is accomplishing by the endless crusade.

If it was making his stance known, we get it. We have understood what he thinks for well over a year.

If it's changing everyone's minds and hoping we all validate his opinion by suddenly sharing it, then I think it's time to give up. Because this repeat performance (daily) is fucking annoying.

As an adult, I am comfortable having opinions that are different than other adults. I don't feel the need to try to change everyone's mind who doesn't agree. The rehashing is tiresome and pointless. Move on.

I think it’s a really interesting window into how all of this works.

The whole messaging program is to get people emotionally committed to a conclusion strongly enough to bulldoze even their own principles and interests backward from that conclusion.

This is how we keep ending up in these situations where intelligent and well-meaning people deeply hold beliefs that are entirely contrary to their stated principles and interests.

Well, when you think about it that way, this has been quite the case study.

[ousdahl]

also, after getting the chance to read the Al Jazeera article, it kinda seems click bait-y.

I mean, if we're allowed to just ask questions: is Zelensky is charting a comprehensive plan to end war with Russia? Or is it just a comprehensive plan "for how Kyiv believes the war with Russia should end"? That seems like it could be two very different things. Either way, the article is pretty light on details.

and, speaking of peace...the whole part on the summit:

But some key countries that attended, such as India, did not agree and others, such as Russia’s ally China, boycotted the summit in protest at Moscow not being invited.


Got curious about the summit, and, found another article from the same source:


Which countries did not sign on?

India, Mexico, Saudi Arabia, South Africa, Thailand, Indonesia and the United Arab Emirates attended the summit, represented by foreign ministers and envoys, but were among those who did not sign the joint communique.

Brazil attended the Ukraine summit as an observer, but did not back the communique.

Russia was not invited to the summit, which Moscow dismissed as “futile”. China also did not attend the two-day event. Pakistan, which counts China as its closest ally, was invited but chose not to attend.

Why did they not sign on?

India: In a statement, Secretary (West) of India’s Ministry of External Affairs Pavan Kapoor said that New Delhi decided to avoid association with the joint communique because of Russia’s absence from the summit. He said India believes that peace in Ukraine requires bringing together “all stakeholders and a sincere and practical engagement between the two parties to the conflict”.

Saudi Arabia: Prince Faisal bin Farhan al Saud, the foreign minister of Saudi Arabia, shared similar concerns while delivering his statement at the summit. “We believe it is important that the international community encourage any step towards serious negotiations, which will require difficult compromises as part of a roadmap that leads to peace,” he said. “And here, it is essential to emphasise that any credible process will need Russia’s participation.”

South Africa: South Africa’s reasons for not backing the communique were different. The country’s National Security Advisor Sydney Mufamadi wrote in a statement that “it was surprising that at this conference, Israel is present and participating”, five days after a United Nations-backed commission accused Israel of committing war crimes against Palestinians. Mufamadi questioned the legitimacy of a communique that its sponsors argued was driven by “respect for international law” when Israel has been accused by many UN officials of violating international law. South Africa has accused Israel of genocide in Gaza in a case at the International Court of Justice.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/6/1 ... communique.

I also wonder if the timing of these "plan to end war" sorta headlines coincides with the U.S. presidential debate.

"also, after getting the chance to read the Al Jazeera article, it kinda seems click bait-y" - " the article is pretty light on details".

I don't read all of your posts but if I am recalling correctly, that's the only Al Jazeera article you have read that you expressed you felt that way about. True? Not true? Reason why I am asking, I tend to feel that way about most if not all of their articles. Now that being said, I find that to be true of most news sources. Why? Because that's exactly what the majority of them do/are - WITH AN AGENDA/BIAS that is often successful in being persuasive - their objective/goal.

Moving on.....

My relative who LIVED (past tense because he was evacuated from his home) in northern Israel posts something on his Instagram story on average every couple of days. He hasn't posted anything in a while. Without giving it TOO much thought, I came up with a list of Gutter's 5 assumptions of the day.
1. He's dead.
2. He hasn't had anything he felt was worth sharing.
3. He doesn't want someone/some people to know where he is and what he is (and isn't) doing so he's not posting anything.
4. He is too busy to post anything.
5. He has been taken hostage by Hezbollah/Hizballah, Hamas, ISIS, PIJ, whoever.

Yes, I've posted Al Jazeera articles before. And yes, there is definitely a bias to pretty much every source of media.

Sorry to hear about your relative btw. The frontlines of a conflict and the actually people affected are some of the scariest stories to come out of war. Hoping he's ok and you hear from him soon.

[ousdahl]

it’s sad

at this point, i’ve got zero desire to read any “source” he digs up (and i doubt i’m alone)

bro you just admitted so many of your views here depend on willful ignorance.

My sources are very often the same as yours, including in this very instance.

[ousdahl]

I don't understand what he is accomplishing by the endless crusade.

If it was making his stance known, we get it. We have understood what he thinks for well over a year.

If it's changing everyone's minds and hoping we all validate his opinion by suddenly sharing it, then I think it's time to give up. Because this repeat performance (daily) is fucking annoying.

As an adult, I am comfortable having opinions that are different than other adults. I don't feel the need to try to change everyone's mind who doesn't agree. The rehashing is tiresome and pointless. Move on.

I think it’s a really interesting window into how all of this works.

The whole messaging program is to get people emotionally committed to a conclusion strongly enough to bulldoze even their own principles and interests backward from that conclusion.

This is how we keep ending up in these situations where intelligent and well-meaning people deeply hold beliefs that are entirely contrary to their stated principles and interests.

what are you even talking about?

[DeletedUser]

I don't understand what he is accomplishing by the endless crusade.

If it was making his stance known, we get it. We have understood what he thinks for well over a year.

If it's changing everyone's minds and hoping we all validate his opinion by suddenly sharing it, then I think it's time to give up. Because this repeat performance (daily) is fucking annoying.

As an adult, I am comfortable having opinions that are different than other adults. I don't feel the need to try to change everyone's mind who doesn't agree. The rehashing is tiresome and pointless. Move on.

I think it’s a really interesting window into how all of this works.

The whole messaging program is to get people emotionally committed to a conclusion strongly enough to bulldoze even their own principles and interests backward from that conclusion.

This is how we keep ending up in these situations where intelligent and well-meaning people deeply hold beliefs that are entirely contrary to their stated principles and interests.

what are you even talking about?

You. He's talking about you.

[jfish26]

I don't understand what he is accomplishing by the endless crusade.

If it was making his stance known, we get it. We have understood what he thinks for well over a year.

If it's changing everyone's minds and hoping we all validate his opinion by suddenly sharing it, then I think it's time to give up. Because this repeat performance (daily) is fucking annoying.

As an adult, I am comfortable having opinions that are different than other adults. I don't feel the need to try to change everyone's mind who doesn't agree. The rehashing is tiresome and pointless. Move on.

I think it’s a really interesting window into how all of this works.

The whole messaging program is to get people emotionally committed to a conclusion strongly enough to bulldoze even their own principles and interests backward from that conclusion.

This is how we keep ending up in these situations where intelligent and well-meaning people deeply hold beliefs that are entirely contrary to their stated principles and interests.

what are you even talking about?

The pot of now-boiling water that you’re in. At least you have company?

[ousdahl]

yeah, I thought you were talking about me. Didn't wanna jump to conclusions tho.

what conclusion do you consider me emotionally committed to? What principles and interests have I bulldozed? what beliefs do you feel are contrary to what you feel are my stated principles and interests?

I have this concern that entire post is little more than just a lot of words.

also, is there any reason you've yet to respond to my question on what you feel is the western propaganda narrative right now?

[DeletedUser]

"the Western propaganda narrative"

JFC

[KUTradition]

bro…

fucking child

[jfish26]

what conclusion do you consider me emotionally committed to? What principles and interests have I bulldozed? what beliefs do you feel are contrary to what you feel are my stated principles and interests?

You are emotionally committed to the conclusion that Ukraine/the West bear some blame for the war being waged on Ukraine.

To get there, you have bulldozed (among other things, like reason) your anti-war stance.

Your belief that Ukraine/the West bear some blame the war being waged on Ukraine is contrary to your anti-war stance.

[ousdahl]

I wouldn't say I'm emotionally committed. More like, just objectively open to considering it, for the sake of actually trying to understand the conflict.

The emotional commitment exhibited here, I'm afraid, is far more so by the folks who reject the idea of objective openness, of blame to go around, of maybe it does take two to tango. You refuse to consider anything at all beyond the good guy bad guy narrative. I mean, how else do we get this far?

And, speaking of emotional, have you noticed how worked up some posters continue to get here?

I'll admit, I've been worked up in this thread too, but it's something I am cognizant of, and try to avoid. I do regret the times I did get worked up, which is why I simply try not to get so worked up any more. (and cue the usual posters with another shameless gaslight like BuT YoU DoN'T ReAlLy ReGrEt ThAt!!!!!!")

Now, since you brought it up - I would like you to articulate why you think I've "bulldozed" my anti-war stance, and that being objectively open to the idea that maybe there's blame to go around is somehow contrary to my anti-war stance.

And please, go re-read illy's take that I found validating, that fish found to be "exactly" on point; the idea that our own government's "mistakes and lies and propaganda" are ok to acknowledge in hindsight, but somehow so totally inappropriate to make any attempt to be aware of it in real time.

[KUTradition]

grunt, grunt

[KUTradition]

arguing about the U.S.’ history of foreign policy mishaps and mistakes to the detriment of innocent civilians is something else

how noble a crusade

[DeletedUser]

You refuse to consider anything at all beyond the good guy bad guy narrative.






And please, go re-read illy's take that I found validating, that fish found to be "exactly" on point; the idea that our own government's "mistakes and lies and propaganda" are ok to acknowledge in hindsight, but somehow so totally inappropriate to make any attempt to be aware of it in real time.

Actually, I think we've all considered the good guy bad guy narrative....and here, in this specific instance, over several years (now), we've decided Russia is the bad guy. Even though the United States hasn't always been the "good guy" in every single instance in our history.


It's okay to question it in real time. But you've had years. You're still repeating yourself, asking the same broad general questions. Stuck on stupid I think is what they call it. So if possible, please spare us. You've repeated your stance thousands of times by now. We are all clear on what you think about this topic.

Can't believe we're going to do this for the 750ish consecutive day. Go meet some real life friends or do something enjoyable.

This ain't it.

[TDub]

apparently in real life he must have some redeeming qualities but boy, on here, he is a worthless twat full of misplaced self importance hitched up to a wagon full of idiots claiming a non existent moral high ground. It's unfortunate and has to be, at least in some part, an act to feed either his own self righteousness or to somehow impress his hairy arm pitted dating app flings.