Tucker Carlson

[zsn]

I honestly can't believe this is an argument.

You guys can't even get your argument straight...

one says they're so easy to get they meaningless

the other says they're roo hard to get and it's a privilege to have one.


You two talk amongst yourself, regroup, decide on a strategy and the try again.

What part of “the Courts have ruled that it’s unconstitutional” needs explanation? Maybe if you packed the SCOTUS with even more partisan hacks they’ll rule against this. Until then this will continue to be demagogued by the party that has trouble winning a majority of votes.

[jfish26]

I honestly can't believe this is an argument.

You guys can't even get your argument straight...

one says they're so easy to get they meaningless

the other says they're roo hard to get and it's a privilege to have one.


You two talk amongst yourself, regroup, decide on a strategy and the try again.

What part of “the Courts have ruled that it’s unconstitutional” needs explanation? Maybe if you packed the SCOTUS with even more partisan hacks they’ll rule against this. Until then this will continue to be demagogued by the party that has trouble winning a majority of votes.

You are getting at the real heart of the matter, which is that the Rs’ response to their policies being deeply unpopular … is to address the “people,” not the policies.

[MICHHAWK]

if "you" find "proper" identification to be an unpopular policy. that tells me way more about "you" than it does the policy. maybe you got something to hide.

[KUTradition]

why can’t both be true?

for middle class suburban kids, good fakes are super easy to acquire

for a member of the Navajo nation living in the middle of the rez? entirely different situation

There are a great many people who do not need driver’s licenses, and for whom getting one (or another ID card) is highly impracticable and/or expensive (directly or indirectly). I’m also highly suspicious that adding hoops to be jumped through makes for very easy exploitation of well-meaning rules.

I absolutely 100% understand the good intentions and logic behind requiring voter ID.

My opinion is that, on the balance, the voter suppression that occurs (or would occur) by way of voter ID and other bureaucratic requirements is not close to being justified by the rate of actual voter fraud that presently occurs.

couldn’t agree more

any reasonable person could see that, particularly given the extra efforts that were seemingly made after 2020 to find as much fraud as possible

it’s just not a big problem, ID or not

and, pursuing that issue in the name of safeguarding our democracy is incredibly disingenuous when there are so many issues at play already limiting the people’s opportunities to vote

i’ve long advocated for election days being national holidays. then, there are the issues related to voting locales where mail-in isn’t an option…both specific location-related accessibility, and numbers of locale to accommodate population densities

but i digress…

[KUTradition]

if "you" find "proper" identification to be an unpopular policy. that tells me way more about "you" than it does the policy. maybe you got something to hide.

or, maybe you’re just a willfully ignorant troll?

[MICHHAWK]

but i digress…

thank you.

[jfish26]

if "you" find "proper" identification to be an unpopular policy. that tells me way more about "you" than it does the policy. maybe you got something to hide.

As usual, you and the point are in different time zones.

[KUTradition]

but i digress…

thank you.

i’m sorry if the truth hurts

wait, no i’m not

[Sparko]

One cannot govern thru grievance alone i am well past tired of welfare state as a term, as the preamble of the constitution should be more than aspirational.

[Sparko]

you guys seriously believe you shouldn't need a valid ID to vote?

TDub, I completely appreciate your point. But that isn't their point. They rely on reasonable and good people to believe they are reasonable. But then refuse to make IDs easily accessible. Or make reasonable waivers. Or serve all areas of the community. Coming from Kansas, we see things differently from the south. They are really good at Jim Crow.

[twocoach]

why can’t both be true?

for middle class suburban kids, good fakes are super easy to acquire

for a member of the Navajo nation living in the middle of the rez? entirely different situation

Ding, ding, we have a winner. Exactly this. For those with means, it is easy to get a license, both real or fake. For those with limited means, limited transportation and access to ID locations and limited documentation, it can be quite a challenge.

And I think that some people forget just how many people were born in the US but never had a birth certificate filed.

https://facetofacegermantown.org/many-a ... n%20Center.

"As many as 7 percent of U.S. citizens – 13 million people – do not have access to the documents that prove their birth and citizenship, according to research by the Brennan Center.

And people with low incomes are more than twice as likely to lack documentation such as a birth certificate that proves their citizenship, according to the center.

That’s partly because of the Southern midwife problem. But even for people who can access their birth certificates, it costs money to secure documents, and poor people preoccupied with food, rent, and heat rarely have the cash to get their papers in order, Austin-Hillery said.

Poor people are often transitory, having to move from place to place to survive, and it’s not uncommon for them to misplace their important papers or lose them to theft, experts say."

[jfish26]

why can’t both be true?

for middle class suburban kids, good fakes are super easy to acquire

for a member of the Navajo nation living in the middle of the rez? entirely different situation

Ding, ding, we have a winner. Exactly this. For those with means, it is easy to get a license, both real or fake. For those with limited means, limited transportation and access to ID locations and limited documentation, it can be quite a challenge.

And I think that some people forget just how many people were born in the US but never had a birth certificate filed.

https://facetofacegermantown.org/many-a ... n%20Center.

"As many as 7 percent of U.S. citizens – 13 million people – do not have access to the documents that prove their birth and citizenship, according to research by the Brennan Center.

And people with low incomes are more than twice as likely to lack documentation such as a birth certificate that proves their citizenship, according to the center.

That’s partly because of the Southern midwife problem. But even for people who can access their birth certificates, it costs money to secure documents, and poor people preoccupied with food, rent, and heat rarely have the cash to get their papers in order, Austin-Hillery said.

Poor people are often transitory, having to move from place to place to survive, and it’s not uncommon for them to misplace their important papers or lose them to theft, experts say."

And - not arguing with you at all - the people you are describing are not pulled proportionally from the electorate.

[twocoach]

if "you" find "proper" identification to be an unpopular policy. that tells me way more about "you" than it does the policy. maybe you got something to hide.

It just means that I realize that not everyone was born to two college educated individuals who had the means to have me delivered in a hospital and the means and wherewithal to get an official copy of my birth certificate for me to keep in my files as well as the luck to not have been robbed of that document over the years.

[twocoach]

why can’t both be true?

for middle class suburban kids, good fakes are super easy to acquire

for a member of the Navajo nation living in the middle of the rez? entirely different situation

Ding, ding, we have a winner. Exactly this. For those with means, it is easy to get a license, both real or fake. For those with limited means, limited transportation and access to ID locations and limited documentation, it can be quite a challenge.

And I think that some people forget just how many people were born in the US but never had a birth certificate filed.

https://facetofacegermantown.org/many-a ... n%20Center.

"As many as 7 percent of U.S. citizens – 13 million people – do not have access to the documents that prove their birth and citizenship, according to research by the Brennan Center.

And people with low incomes are more than twice as likely to lack documentation such as a birth certificate that proves their citizenship, according to the center.

That’s partly because of the Southern midwife problem. But even for people who can access their birth certificates, it costs money to secure documents, and poor people preoccupied with food, rent, and heat rarely have the cash to get their papers in order, Austin-Hillery said.

Poor people are often transitory, having to move from place to place to survive, and it’s not uncommon for them to misplace their important papers or lose them to theft, experts say."

And - not arguing with you at all - the people you are describing are not pulled proportionally from the electorate.

100% accurate. This disproportionately affects lower income and minority citizens.

[MICHHAWK]

maybe it's a moot point. because the people you describe don't vote anyways.

[jfish26]

Ding, ding, we have a winner. Exactly this. For those with means, it is easy to get a license, both real or fake. For those with limited means, limited transportation and access to ID locations and limited documentation, it can be quite a challenge.

And I think that some people forget just how many people were born in the US but never had a birth certificate filed.

https://facetofacegermantown.org/many-a ... n%20Center.

"As many as 7 percent of U.S. citizens – 13 million people – do not have access to the documents that prove their birth and citizenship, according to research by the Brennan Center.

And people with low incomes are more than twice as likely to lack documentation such as a birth certificate that proves their citizenship, according to the center.

That’s partly because of the Southern midwife problem. But even for people who can access their birth certificates, it costs money to secure documents, and poor people preoccupied with food, rent, and heat rarely have the cash to get their papers in order, Austin-Hillery said.

Poor people are often transitory, having to move from place to place to survive, and it’s not uncommon for them to misplace their important papers or lose them to theft, experts say."

And - not arguing with you at all - the people you are describing are not pulled proportionally from the electorate.

100% accurate. This disproportionately affects lower income and minority citizens.

So, just to close the loop for our hard-of-understanding friends: THIS - and not anything like the “security” of our elections - is why one side is so horny for voter ID.

[MICHHAWK]

if you have the means to obtain a smartphone, you have the means to obtain proper identification.

make it mandatory to show proper identification to purchase a smartphone. see how fast they get that birth certificate.

[ousdahl]

Has anyone, like, studied voter fraud and determined how frequently instances of as much would have been prevented by an ID?

I mean, if somebody votes at two different ballot boxes but shows proper ID at both, what good does that do.

And the trade-off of IDs preventing voter fraud versus IDs enabling voter disenfranchisement

[DeletedUser]

I don't think it would make much of a difference at all.

Not with fraud (there isn't significant fraud occuring).

And also not with voter disenfranchisement. Sorry, I don't buy that the people who care enough to vote (around half the population on good years?) don't have ID.

[MICHHAWK]

if you are a productive member of society. you have proper identification.