Let’s have a war!

Ugh.
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ousdahl
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Re: Let’s have a war!

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KUTradition wrote: Thu Apr 14, 2022 2:42 pm
ousdahl wrote: Thu Apr 14, 2022 2:40 pm
KUTradition wrote: Thu Apr 14, 2022 2:38 pm
all of that is secondary to innocent people being bombed to death…or at least it should be
which innocent people, again?

cuz you haven't cared when the US does it directly, or by proxy like in Ukraine (or Syria, or Yemen, or Palestine, or...)

why do you only care when Russia does it?
talk about putting words in mouths

when did you ever post about nazis in Ukraine until putin invaded?

where’s Japhy with a doubling down on dumb post when we need him?
again I'll admit, I too am among the western masses who weren't concerned about Ukraine until the media told us to be.

And once the media told us to be, it sounded fishy to me. Just like it sounded fishy to me when the media told us we'd surely find WMD's in Iraq, but that's somehow lost on everyone else.

and once I DID start caring more, and also care more about all the other warmongering going on in the world, I've been met with incredible bad-faith hostility among many of you.

and I'm bummed Japhy hasn't been around lately, but I'm also glad to have one less person around resorting to personal attacks and telling me I'm an idiot for thinking the rise of nazism in Europe might actually not be a good thing.
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Re: Let’s have a war!

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KUTradition wrote: Thu Apr 14, 2022 2:58 pm
ousdahl wrote: Thu Apr 14, 2022 2:55 pm
KUTradition wrote: Thu Apr 14, 2022 2:48 pm
why?

you haven’t given me that respect in kind from posts earlier today

i’m not gonna play your game
what sort of respect am I supposed to offer, here?

what do you want me to do? Just capitulate to your "false false" sort of world views, actual evidence be damned?

let me point out, this is all shit I DON'T want to believe. It's not that I'm trying to preserve a certain world view that I want; it's that I'm willing to confront a certain world view I DON'T want. Trust me, if the whole shitstorm in Ukraine was all noble and good, I'd be less upset about it too!
how about you answer my questions, rather than dodging and deflecting, posting in all caps and calling names

i’ve admitted that Ukraine has a nazi problem (numerous times) going back pages in this thread
I've tried to answer your questions in good faith, over and over. I'm not sure what more you want me to say. Could it be that I'm just not giving you the answers you wanna hear?

I've avoided trying to call other folks names. Who do you think I am, other folks?

thanks for admitting Ukraine has a nazi problem. You're among the first around here! Whether you acknowledge that nazi problem has been empowered by your and my own tax dollars, and whether all that may weigh on your own conscience, is entirely up to you.

It weighs on my conscience, though, which is why I keep fussing.
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Re: Let’s have a war!

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there ya go again…that’s putin’s narrative

where is there evidence of a rise in naziism through europe? and who here has said that wouldn’t be bad? and if putin is concerned about nazis, why hasn’t he done more to rod his own country of them?

are you cool with putin being emboldened to reconstruct the soviet empire, retaking the majority of eastern Europe?

you’d be cool with a new world order led by china and russia, rather than one led by the US and western Europe?
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Re: Let’s have a war!

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KUTradition wrote: Thu Apr 14, 2022 11:30 am “I'm not super familiar with the global weapons trade”

it would behoove you to do some research prior to these discussions

“But the US is perhaps the biggest player in NATO, and if the US acted like the actual leaders of the free world who actually wanted to broker peace…”

by doing what, exactly? are you forgetting the months of attempted diplomacy prior to any actual fighting?

“How would you feel about some other country, perhaps even some other NATO country, going behind our backs about Ukraine?”

not sure what you’re getting at. going behind our backs how? if another NATO country went behind the US’ back, they’d necessarily be going behind the backs of all other NATO members as well, and i’d imagine such an action wouldn’t sit well. there’s a reason the alliance exists - the greater good for all members

give me a more specific hypothetical that gets at what you’re asking

“t hought experiment: if indeed "none of NATO countries are comfortable with putin's actions," then what about non-NATO countries? You realize most of the world is NOT NATO, right? Or do you mean to say the US/NATO world view is the only world view that matters?”

what’s your point? of course the views of non-NATO countries matter, generally. but, some countries have a vested and direct interest in what’s going. it should be pretty obvious that the sentiments of Ivory Coast or French Guyana are secondary to those of European countries in this instance.

the US and NATO are pro-democracy. i’m pro-democracy. i don’t give two shots about the opinions of countries that aren’t pro-democracy. do you think the opinions of autocratic or totalitarian governments should matter as much or more than those that are pro-democracy?

of course there’s no direct evidence that putin has visions beyond Ukraine, but people much smarter and informed on this subject are near certain that, at least impart, Ukraine has been as much an exercise to see what putin can get away with as it is anything directly related to Ukraine.

again, why are you so insistent on believing putin’s narrative, even in the face of his ever-changing justifications for the provocation?

you still aren’t answering my questions, but deflecting…sorry, but it comes off as you really just not having any clue what you’re talking about
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Re: Let’s have a war!

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KUTradition wrote: Thu Apr 14, 2022 2:07 pm
ousdahl wrote: Thu Apr 14, 2022 2:01 pm
Cascadia wrote: Thu Apr 14, 2022 1:22 pm I’ve only loosely followed this thread but do have a question.

Are they posters on here who think Ukraine is a legitimate democracy?
bro I've been critical of you before, but this time I've gotta give you credit.

Despite my sustained attempts to try and bring any context or critical analysis of this clusterfuck, and getting absolutely nowhere beyond being repeatedly met with only the gaslighting and blanket dismissals and "this is just good vs bad you gotta pick a side," you actually succeeded in advancing the entire "good vs bad" side of the argument, to one of simple semantics.

Q only wishes he got the discussion to progress as far as "define legitimate democracy."
so, define it

then, and be explicit, provide examples of democracies the two of you think are “legitimate” as well as examples that aren’t
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Re: Let’s have a war!

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i’ll say again, imo the naziism talk has always been a distraction…when we should be talking about the indiscriminate bombing of civilian targets and the like
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Re: Let’s have a war!

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KUTradition wrote: Thu Apr 14, 2022 2:46 pm Image

Theater Serving as a Shelter in Ukraine with the Word 'Children' Written Next to It Was Bombed

meh…nazi sympathizers, the lot of them
KUTradition wrote: Thu Apr 14, 2022 2:44 pm Image

not innocent, nor her baby…gotta be nazis or nazi sympathizers

it's a shame!

but, are you sure these images are what you think they are? What's your sources?

many of the lefty pages are inherently skeptical; that is, someone will post an image of some war-torn something (like you just posted!) with some "look how BAD Russia is" caption, and then some commie babe will be like, "actually that image is not Ukraine but rather Damascus, taken from an article about a bombing in Syria from last year, here's a link to the credible journalist who published it first last June" or "actually that's just an image from an airshow accident in 2019" or "actually that's an image staged by some extremist Ukrainian militia, and Al Jazeera already debunked it"

My only point is, again: let's be skeptical here. Of course it's easy to only believe what we wanna believe, so let's be aware of just that!

ok bigger point: let's assume all the war-torn images are real (and they likely are)...so why do we think the only way to mitigate that is more war?

Ok, and another point - how sad is it that one can't even be objectively skeptical about this shit, without being labeled as some bad-guy-sympathizer instead?
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Re: Let’s have a war!

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KUTradition wrote: Thu Apr 14, 2022 3:12 pm i’ll say again, imo the naziism talk has always been a distraction…when we should be talking about the indiscriminate bombing of civilian targets and the like
leave the United States out of this!

wait, nm, we're only allowed to be upset about war crimes when the Russians do it.

and I kinda doubt the ethnic minorities who have been victimized by Ukrainian nazis for the last 8 years think the nazism talk is just a "distraction."

spare me the "putin rhetoric" too, please. That's our own gummint who reported it that way. I posted the link here and everything.
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Re: Let’s have a war!

Post by Deleted User 863 »

We've seen this is our country as well, but this is what happens when people read a few articles, see some tweets, and think they are experts on a complex topic they knew nothing about a few months ago.

1 side is currently targeting children and civilians. The other isn't. This isn't about Nazis. It's about conquering territory.
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Re: Let’s have a war!

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ok, i’ll try to simplify this…

lets say we all agree that Ukraine’s nazis are too much of a pock mark to stomach and we cease all support for Ukraine

then what?

do we just sit by and watch putin continue doing as he has in Ukraine?

what do we tell our European allies if he doesn’t stop there? tough?

do we stop being allies with countries that continue supporting Ukraine?

do we just say fuck NATO, a la trump?
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Re: Let’s have a war!

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ousdahl wrote: Thu Apr 14, 2022 3:16 pm
KUTradition wrote: Thu Apr 14, 2022 3:12 pm i’ll say again, imo the naziism talk has always been a distraction…when we should be talking about the indiscriminate bombing of civilian targets and the like
leave the United States out of this!

wait, nm, we're only allowed to be upset about war crimes when the Russians do it.

and I kinda doubt the ethnic minorities who have been victimized by Ukrainian nazis for the last 8 years think the nazism talk is just a "distraction."

spare me the "putin rhetoric" too, please. That's our own gummint who reported it that way. I posted the link here and everything.
dude, you gotta focus if you want me to continue this…you’re all over the place

do you wanna talk about naziism? war crimes? arms proliferation?

and it’s absolutely putin rhetoric, are you fucking kidding? it has been one of his ever-changing justifications for this whole mess
Last edited by KUTradition on Thu Apr 14, 2022 3:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Let’s have a war!

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He wants to ask vague questions and feel self righteous.

And you guys say I am the one who argues just to argue?
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Re: Let’s have a war!

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KUTradition wrote: Thu Apr 14, 2022 3:24 pm ok, i’ll try to simplify this…

lets say we all agree that Ukraine’s nazis are too much of a pock mark to stomach and we cease all support for Ukraine

then what?

do we just sit by and watch putin continue doing as he has in Ukraine?

what do we tell our European allies if he doesn’t stop there? tough?

do we stop being allies with countries that continue supporting Ukraine?

do we just say fuck NATO, a la trump?
"fuck NATO" could be an option, but I would do it less in a short-sighed nationalist pride "Trump" kinda way, and more in a "perhaps NATO, an explicitly military alliance designed to counter Soviet expansion but is now kind of obsolete considering the Soviet union's been dissolved for decades now, and serves more as some muscle for the moneyed interests mostly just worried about MIC no-bid contracts and controlling oil pipelines and such, with no real regard for the people of the world affected by its militant imperial expansion," sure.

I also think that to "cease all support for Ukraine" just might go a long long way toward Putin ceasing his invasion too, depending...(Cuban missile crisis, anyone?)...but here's the kicker! We would HAVE to advance the cause as some "diplomatic" effort to broker peace! Yet Merica just ain't interested, are we? We'd rather go zero-sum with Putin (and also conveniently perpetuate yet another endless war for taxpayers to keep mindlessly throwing money at)

but either of those requires some awareness that the western world just don't possess. It would have to admit that maybe our own warmongering can be problematic too.

For real though, go read how NATO is perceived in Iraq, or Afghanistan, or Syria, or Yemen, or any of the other places NATO warmongering has fucked shit up but no one in the west cares about (besides the bleeding heart commie babes and such)
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Re: Let’s have a war!

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KUTradition wrote: Thu Apr 14, 2022 3:09 pm
KUTradition wrote: Thu Apr 14, 2022 11:30 am “I'm not super familiar with the global weapons trade”

it would behoove you to do some research prior to these discussions

“But the US is perhaps the biggest player in NATO, and if the US acted like the actual leaders of the free world who actually wanted to broker peace…”

by doing what, exactly? are you forgetting the months of attempted diplomacy prior to any actual fighting?

“How would you feel about some other country, perhaps even some other NATO country, going behind our backs about Ukraine?”

not sure what you’re getting at. going behind our backs how? if another NATO country went behind the US’ back, they’d necessarily be going behind the backs of all other NATO members as well, and i’d imagine such an action wouldn’t sit well. there’s a reason the alliance exists - the greater good for all members

give me a more specific hypothetical that gets at what you’re asking

“t hought experiment: if indeed "none of NATO countries are comfortable with putin's actions," then what about non-NATO countries? You realize most of the world is NOT NATO, right? Or do you mean to say the US/NATO world view is the only world view that matters?”

what’s your point? of course the views of non-NATO countries matter, generally. but, some countries have a vested and direct interest in what’s going. it should be pretty obvious that the sentiments of Ivory Coast or French Guyana are secondary to those of European countries in this instance.

the US and NATO are pro-democracy. i’m pro-democracy. i don’t give two shots about the opinions of countries that aren’t pro-democracy. do you think the opinions of autocratic or totalitarian governments should matter as much or more than those that are pro-democracy?

of course there’s no direct evidence that putin has visions beyond Ukraine, but people much smarter and informed on this subject are near certain that, at least impart, Ukraine has been as much an exercise to see what putin can get away with as it is anything directly related to Ukraine.

again, why are you so insistent on believing putin’s narrative, even in the face of his ever-changing justifications for the provocation?

you still aren’t answering my questions, but deflecting…sorry, but it comes off as you really just not having any clue what you’re talking about
maybe I didn't quote every single point, but I think there's a lot of good sincere responses to your questions here, which I'm posting again, since you asked again and may have missed it the first time around.
ousdahl wrote: Thu Apr 14, 2022 1:13 pm
KUTradition wrote: Thu Apr 14, 2022 11:30 am
by doing what, exactly? are you forgetting the months of attempted diplomacy prior to any actual fighting?
this would be good to review. What diplomacy, exactly? I'd like to see a timeline of attempts at diplomacy, juxtaposed with a timeline of "lethal aid." To review only one without the other would seem disingenuous.
“How would you feel about some other country, perhaps even some other NATO country, going behind our backs about Ukraine?”

not sure what you’re getting at.
guess I'm not sure either then...I just asked cuz you're the one who alleged Ukraine would "just get weapons from other western countries" and I was trying to better understand that much.
“t hought experiment: if indeed "none of NATO countries are comfortable with putin's actions," then what about non-NATO countries? You realize most of the world is NOT NATO, right? Or do you mean to say the US/NATO world view is the only world view that matters?”

what’s your point? of course the views of non-NATO countries matter, generally. but, some countries have a vested and direct interest in what’s going. it should be pretty obvious that the sentiments of Ivory Coast or French Guyana are secondary to those of European countries in this instance.
my point is that much of the rest of the world views the US and NATO not as the liberators we tell ourselves we are, but as thee biggest warmongers in the world, and a bunch of hypocrites to boot. Much of the rest of the world is viewing this not as some good guy bad guy pick a side narrative like we do, but as two imperial bullies trying to outmeasure each other's cocks. Turns out, clusterfucks like the Iraq invasion, the Afghanistan invasion, et al, were quite the dings to our global reputation, and in light of that, much of the rest of the world thinks we don't have the credibility to now claim some moral high road about other foreign invasions and such.

(AGAIN, not that that justifies any Russian aggression!)
the US and NATO are pro-democracy. i’m pro-democracy.[/quote]

I am pro-democracy too! But my concern is, the Ukraine sounds effectively far closer to some far-right fascist authoritarian regime, than they are to any sort of healthy democracy. I don't know how you can be so indifferent to that. And let me again clarify - even if Ukraine is run by a bunch of fascists, that in no way justifies the Russian invasion! But! In no way does it justify your and my tax dollars paying for Ukrainian extremists' weapons, either!

and realize, much of the rest of the world does not view the US and NATO as necessarily being "pro-democracy" in the feel-good way we think of it. See the previous points about Afghanistan et al.

NOT THAT THAT WOULD JUSTIFY RUSSIAN INVASION

of course there’s no direct evidence that putin has visions beyond Ukraine but people much smarter and informed on this subject are near certain that, at least impart, Ukraine has been as much an exercise to see what putin can get away with as it is anything directly related to Ukraine.
if there is a lack of "direct evidence" that that much might actually occur, doesn't it seem like that may just be more sensationalist pro-war rhetoric, then? But yeah, if it was up to Putin, I'm sure his stupid ego would be thrilled to have some big giant imperial footprint to call his own. As delusional as he is, though, short of actual evidence of as much, then suggesting that much might be giving him too much credit.
again, why are you so insistent on believing putin’s narrative, even in the face of his ever-changing justifications for the provocation?
it's so frustrating that, no matter how many times I condemn this shit, you guys still try to pin me as "believing Putin's narrative" regardless. BEING ANTI-WAR DOES NOT EQUATE TO BEING PRO-THE OTHER SIDE. Try conditioning your minds to be better than that!

I don't believe Putin's narrative one bit! I've said that over and over and over again. And again, please make the attempt to distinguish. Just cuz I'd rather not be arming a bunch of nazis doesn't automatically equate to being a Russia supporter. I condemn their aggression! It's just I condemn the Ukrainian ethno-fascist aggression too! Do you?

cuz bear in mind, there's plenty of evidence, from our own government and western media, that Ukraine was and is a mess all along. It's not believing Putin's narrative to acknowledge that. To REFUSE to acknowledge that like totally IS some fucked up western propagandized bullshit, though!
you still aren’t answering my questions, but deflecting…sorry, but it comes off as you really just not having any clue what you’re talking about
I've tried to answer your questions directly. Forgive me if it's still not satisfactory to you. I'll admit tho, I'm no expert about eastern European foreign policy! Forgive me if I'm still not being direct enough...or if I'm not just telling you what you wanna hear.

Let me try to articulate, once again, that both of these things can be true:

- the Russian invasion should be condemned
- Ukraine has a nazi problem either way

I suppose the reason I can't shut up about it, is your guys's shameless gaslighting otherwise, combined with your guys's perceived reluctance to admit nazism is a problem too.

another thought experiment!: say Russia is licked, and Putin comes out with his tail between his legs, and concedes defeat, and hastily withdraws from Ukraine. (if only!) So, what then? We have a nation rife with right-wing extremism, but now as emboldened as ever by their victory over Russia, and also better armed than they've ever been, to get back to their genocidal civil war humanitarian crisis no one cared about previously...what then? Do we just go back to like not caring about it again?

let's go way down Q's rabbit hole: what if all that happens, and Ukraine then starts being the imperial cockmeasurers? What if they start invading their neighbors trying to impose their ethno-nationalist shit all across Europe? sound familiar?

at what point DO we say, hey maybe we DON'T want fascism on the rise in Europe once again, and certainly don't want to be instrumental in weaponizing as much. and not just some fringe groups in the "BuT EvErY CoUnTrY HaS NaZiS!!!" kinda way, but in an alarmingly state-supported kinda way. You seent what happened last time, right?

(mjl can we please be on the same side here? I'm trying to be CONCERNED about the rise of nazism, not just shrug it off like so many others wanna do!)

I think it's that so many of you guys don't even realize how conditioned we are to reduce it to some good guy bad guy narrative and just "pick a side," and it bugs you that I'd rather pick some more comprehensive anti-war stance instead.

but most of all, I'm bummed this is so divisive. I'd rather just get along. I don't think we're nearly as far off as we think. I'm thinking about remaining this thread in the hopes it might just blow over.
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Re: Let’s have a war!

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BasketballJayhawk wrote: Thu Apr 14, 2022 3:26 pm He wants to ask vague questions and feel self righteous.

And you guys say I am the one who argues just to argue?
I know I should have given up a long time ago.

And I don't wanna argue just to argue, I swear!

but - face it, if everything you posted was met with "you're just parroting Hitler talking points, you must be a nazi," you'd want to clear the air too.

Heck, on some bigger level, if I could help you guys to realize that endless war doesn't have to be an option, my work here would be done! But since you wanna keep doubling down on escalating world war 3, I wanna keep feeling "self righteous" about trying to talk us out of it anyway.
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Re: Let’s have a war!

Post by Deleted User 863 »

LOL go read how those same countries you mentioned feel about so many values that you hold near and dear. They aren't peaceful places. Nato didn't "fuck those places up". Those places have been warzones for centuries.
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Re: Let’s have a war!

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Let me try to articulate, once again, that both of these things can be true:

- the Russian invasion should be condemned
- Ukraine has a nazi problem either way

I suppose the reason I can't shut up about it, is your guys's shameless gaslighting otherwise, combined with your guys's perceived reluctance to admit nazism is a problem too.


this is just false bs, at least as it relates directly to me

posts like this put me in a position to not take you seriously, at all

i’ve said numerous times, multiple times today even, that Ukraine has a nazi problem
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Re: Let’s have a war!

Post by Deleted User 863 »

"We" are not escalating anything to WW3. Putin is.
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Re: Let’s have a war!

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and ousie, it’s been documented over and over again that the claims of genocide are massively overblown if not downright fabrications
Have we fallen into a mesmerized state that makes us accept as inevitable that which is inferior or detrimental, as though having lost the will or the vision to demand that which is good?
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Re: Let’s have a war!

Post by Deleted User 863 »

Nobody here thinks Ukraine is a "good guy".
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