Let’s have a war!

[ousdahl]

it's interesting how the ones accusing *me* of being all ignorant and unwilling to accept other world views, are also the ones running and hiding with these "I'm done" sentiments.

Kinda makes you wonder...

It should certainly make YOU wonder.

dude

I say this as respectfully as I can:

when it comes to petty putdowns and personal attacks without actually contributing anything of substance, you take the cake.

[TDub]

“As Japhy pointed out, there have been plenty of examples of indigenous communities working together to take care of each other and allocate resources equitably, for more effectively than any large-scale state-established attempted at such “communal” living.”

how long did those few examples last, and why don’t they exist currently?

because it only works in small scale communities and tribes. Even when those places existed the peacefulness was only within their own commune....outside of that, competing communities were still warring with one another.

[Deleted User 863]

well, did the NATO and USA do anything to materially improve the conditions in those countries?

Or just show up and be a bunch of militant assholes ourselves, then GTFO as hastily as we could while we just kinda tossed the reigns back over to the Taliban on the way out?

What about before NATO or the USA even existed? Familiar with the history of those places? Never ending wars as far back as the history books go.

that's quite a broad brush.

I'm not sure the USA and NATO is so exclusively to credit for peace historically

nor are they necessarily the best arbiters for world peace going forward.

I'm not entirely sure who is! But when we have an entire nation so collectively conditioned to just accept war as "HuMaN NaTuRe!" and a gummint mostly just concerned about the interests of capital, it just seems like we'd get only lip service, more so than any positive material change.

I mean for real who cares about world peace when we could care more about the economy, bro!

I didn't credit NATO or the USA for peace. Simply pointed out those areas have been warzones for thousands of years. Long before either of those 2 entities existed.

[TDub]

it's interesting how the ones accusing *me* of being all ignorant and unwilling to accept other world views, are also the ones running and hiding with these "I'm done" sentiments.

Kinda makes you wonder...

It should certainly make YOU wonder.

dude

I say this as respectfully as I can:

when it comes to petty putdowns and personal attacks without actually contributing anything of substance, you take the cake.

Would it matter? You have not listened or acknowledged ANYBODIES contributions of substance. Youre stuck dude. There has been lots of substance provides by many people that you have ignored.

When you run into one asshole he's an asshole....

when everybody you run into is an asshole......you just might be the asshole.

[ousdahl]

“As Japhy pointed out, there have been plenty of examples of indigenous communities working together to take care of each other and allocate resources equitably, for more effectively than any large-scale state-established attempted at such “communal” living.”

how long did those few examples last, and why don’t they exist currently?

because it only works in small scale communities and tribes. Even when those places existed the peacefulness was only within their own commune....outside of that, competing communities were still warring with one another.

yea, I know.

That's why you should have copy and pasted the next line in that quote too.

"Imho the fate of the world relies largely on somehow figuring out that collective communal mindset despite previously failed attempts."

Unless, of course, you'd rather argue why the would still be better off with perpetual warring and inequality.

[ousdahl]

It should certainly make YOU wonder.

dude

I say this as respectfully as I can:

when it comes to petty putdowns and personal attacks without actually contributing anything of substance, you take the cake.

Would it matter?

it would matter to me, at least, as I would appreciate the civility; and to other posters over the years who have PM'd me like "dude why is TDub such an asshole to you?"

You have not listened or acknowledged ANYBODIES contributions of substance.

I have, though! Really! I've tried! It's just that so many here won't even acknowledge that, since I still hesitate to capitulate to your guy's toxic world views.

Youre stuck dude. There has been lots of substance provides by many people that you have ignored.

When you run into one asshole he's an asshole....

when everybody you run into is an asshole......you just might be the asshole.

everyone thought Jesus was an asshole the first time around, too.

with that said, you know what? If I make you uncomfortable in challenging you to question your own worldviews, well then sorry, but I don't think that's necessarily a good reason for me to relent. And if it really makes you so uncomfortable to question your own world views, then maybe your own world views are totally fucked.

and remember, it's not EVERYBODY who thinks I'm an asshole. It's just like 6 or so privileged white men in this here thread, and all civilians at that, who think it's an acceptable worldview to just NOT have these sorts of conversations, and are more than happy to let wars rage - as long as they or their loved ones aren't expected to do the fighting.

[jhawks99]

Holy crap, Oussie. When did you go full lobster?

[ousdahl]

again, I know I've ben radicalized!

but it's the opposite direction of lobster.

In fact, it's everyone else being lobsters and insisting on some far right extremist narrative.

STOP NORMALIZING WAR.

don't expect me to shut up about until we do, either.

[Deleted User 863]

LOL @ privileged white men coming from the privileged white man who thinks singing kumbaya with bad guys is the way to solve the worlds problems.

[Deleted User 863]

Nobody is normalizing war. Nobody here wants war. But you can't prevent violence from tyrants by asking nicely for them to please stop.

[jhawks99]

again, I know I've ben radicalized!

but it's the opposite direction of lobster.

In fact, it's everyone else being lobsters and insisting on some far right extremist narrative.

STOP NORMALIZING WAR.

don't expect me to shut up about until we do, either.

I don't think I normalized war. The US has chosen a side and I think very obviously the right side. Ukraine didn't have a whole lot of choice in this war and we need to support them without expanding the war. It's a tightrope walk and so far, I think we've done a pretty good job.

[Deleted User 863]

again, I know I've ben radicalized!

but it's the opposite direction of lobster.

In fact, it's everyone else being lobsters and insisting on some far right extremist narrative.

STOP NORMALIZING WAR.

don't expect me to shut up about until we do, either.

I don't think I normalized war. The US has chosen a side and I think very obviously the right side. Ukraine didn't have a whole lot of choice in this war and we need to support them without expanding the war. It's a tightrope walk and so far, I think we've done a pretty good job.

Yes, in a tough situation because the stakes of escalation are dangerously high, i too think we've done a relatively good job.

And expanding on that, I do not think anyone here thinks the United States is free from mistakes when it comes to war/wars of the past.

[Mjl]

The people who are horrified by the war are normalizing it.
The person bringing up everything other than the war itself is not normalizing it.

Hmm. Maybe I don't understand the meaning of normalize.

[Cascadia]

I’ve only loosely followed this thread but do have a question.

Are they posters on here who think Ukraine is a legitimate democracy?

define legitimate democracy

Maybe I should have said "legitimately a democracy". Either way, there are systems that exist to monitor levels of democracy

https://www.democracymatrix.com/ranking

Ukraine # 92 - Hybrid Regime

https://freedomhouse.org/countries/freedom-world/scores

Ukraine
#101 Global Freedom Score(61) = Partly Free
Democracy score of 39 = Transitional of Hybrid Regime


There's also a nice table on this wiki page that shows Ukraine going on the wrong direction.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index

2006 = 6.94
2021 = 5.57

[TDub]

What if Braveheart was actually just Longshanks being threatened by the possibility that the Scottish clans might unify in defense of their land. What...if the Irish had sent over an archer to assist? Maybe he was pushed into conflict by these possible threats; forced to murder, rape, pillage and take over the land.

Perhaps we should look at that whole scenario and movie through a new lens.

[KUTradition]

I’ve only loosely followed this thread but do have a question.

Are they posters on here who think Ukraine is a legitimate democracy?

define legitimate democracy

Maybe I should have said "legitimately a democracy". Either way, there are systems that exist to monitor levels of democracy

https://www.democracymatrix.com/ranking

Ukraine # 92 - Hybrid Regime

https://freedomhouse.org/countries/freedom-world/scores

Ukraine
#101 Global Freedom Score(61) = Partly Free
Democracy score of 39 = Transitional of Hybrid Regime


There's also a nice table on this wiki page that shows Ukraine going on the wrong direction.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index

2006 = 6.94
2021 = 5.57

thanks for this. it’s a bit more into the weeds than i was going for, but i’ll have to give those links a look

my thinking was more along the lines of free and fare elections

[KUTradition]

“There's also a nice table on this wiki page that shows Ukraine going on the wrong direction.”

as is the US

[TDub]

is there a specific level of democracy where it would be ok for Russia to proceed? I mean, what does that really have to do with the acceptability of the invasion?

[Cascadia]

“There's also a nice table on this wiki page that shows Ukraine going on the wrong direction.”

as is the US

No doubt. That why the parroting of “greatest county on earth” is so ignorant and nauseating. We’ve been going the wrong direction for a while now.

[MICHHAWK]

correction. you have been going in the wrong direction.

most of the rest of us have been moving in the right direction. always have. always will.

the UNITED STATES is the greatest country on earth. by a wide margin. don't fault the rest of us for your failings.