Let’s have a war!

[ousdahl]

how are those polls mirror opposites of one another even though they're pretty much asking the same thing?

[KUTradition]

for being so smart, dude has some of the dumbest ideas

[ousdahl]

lol yea

but I guess that puts you on team "these people of these regions shouldn't get any say in the fate of these regions," then?

I'm not saying that in itself is wrong, but I am saying I'd at least like to understand that better.

and if the best to decide the fate of these regions is someone other than the people of these regions, I'd be curious to understand who is good for that position, or not good for that position.

[KUTradition]

do you not care that Ukraine actually has laws?

i made this comparison before, but you very obviously either don’t remember or don’t agree…just like the US (and the overwhelming majority of other countries, i’d imagine), there are laws or constitutional statutes that govern how this sort of thing goes down

if people in eastern and southern Ukraine don’t want to be Ukrainian, they have two LEGAL options: 1) immigrate to russia, or 2) work to either formally secede or have a constitutional amendment passed

i don’t know why you make this so hard sometimes

[KUTradition]

the only people trying to decide the fate of the Ukrainians are the Ukrainians and russians

if you wanna say the big bad west is trying to decide that fate, than so are all of russia’s allies

[ousdahl]

but isn't the big bad west apparently at least trying to have some influence on the fate of Ukraine, in the form of flooding the place with weapons? Or are we supposed to assume that's immaterial here?

[ousdahl]

do you not care that Ukraine actually has laws?

i made this comparison before, but you very obviously either don’t remember or don’t agree…just like the US (and the overwhelming majority of other countries, i’d imagine), there are laws or constitutional statutes that govern how this sort of thing goes down

if people in eastern and southern Ukraine don’t want to be Ukrainian, they have two LEGAL options: 1) immigrate to russia, or 2) work to either formally secede or have a constitutional amendment passed

i don’t know why you make this so hard sometimes

didn't the people in eastern Ukraine already take some initiative to formally secede, though? Haven't at least the Donetsk and Luhansk regions declared their own independence like 8 years ago? Are you saying their secession wasn't formal enough?

Or, are we to assume the whole people's republics thing isn't a thing, it's just more propaganda. For the sake of being skeptical of everything, I may be open to that theory, I guess.

cuz otherwise, if we do accept that much of eastern Ukraine hasn't wanted anything to do with the rest of Ukraine for years now, then how are we supposed to show solidarity anyway? How do we #StandWithUkraine when Ukraine doesn't even stand with itself?

[Cascadia]

for being so smart, dude has some of the dumbest ideas

He’s on the spectrum

[KUTradition]

yes, but at Ukraine’s request…and it is Ukrainians that are using the weapons and doing the fighting

if they didn’t want to, they could have just said fuck it and let putin do what he wanted

[KUTradition]

do you not care that Ukraine actually has laws?

i made this comparison before, but you very obviously either don’t remember or don’t agree…just like the US (and the overwhelming majority of other countries, i’d imagine), there are laws or constitutional statutes that govern how this sort of thing goes down

if people in eastern and southern Ukraine don’t want to be Ukrainian, they have two LEGAL options: 1) immigrate to russia, or 2) work to either formally secede or have a constitutional amendment passed

i don’t know why you make this so hard sometimes

didn't the people in eastern Ukraine already take some initiative to formally secede, though? Haven't at least the Donetsk and Luhansk regions declared their own independence like 8 years ago? Are you saying their secession wasn't formal enough?

Or, are we to assume the whole people's republics thing isn't a thing, it's just more propaganda. For the sake of being skeptical of everything, I may be open to that theory, I guess.

cuz otherwise, if we do accept that much of eastern Ukraine hasn't wanted anything to do with the rest of Ukraine for years now, then how are we supposed to show solidarity anyway? How do we #StandWithUkraine when Ukraine doesn't even stand with itself?

my understanding is those votes, as with these recent ones, are in violation of Ukraine’s laws/constitution

[ousdahl]

so by that logic, the American colonies should have never written a Declaration of Independence either?

unless it was legally OK'd by King George's standards and such

[ousdahl]

yes, but at Ukraine’s request…and it is Ukrainians that are using the weapons and doing the fighting

if they didn’t want to, they could have just said fuck it and let putin do what he wanted

so do we just broker arms to anyone who requests them, then?

If we don't, then what makes Ukraine so unique?

And bear in mind, by our own gummint's admission, we don't even know what's becoming of those weapons. We hope Ukrainians are the ones using the weapons, and using them to advance some prescribed agenda of freedom and democracy. But again, we don't have any sort of checks or balances like that in place.

And again, assuming Ukraine is using our weapons for freedom and democracy, just still feels kinda like saying the US military invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq brought freedom and democracy to those places too.

[KUTradition]

so by that logic, the American colonies should have never written a Declaration of Independence either?

unless it was legally OK'd by King George's standards and such

no

on many levels, no

[ousdahl]

agreed!

[KUTradition]

yes, but at Ukraine’s request…and it is Ukrainians that are using the weapons and doing the fighting

if they didn’t want to, they could have just said fuck it and let putin do what he wanted

so do we just broker arms to anyone who requests them, then?

If we don't, then what makes Ukraine so unique?

because they are the enemy of our enemy, and on the whole are more interested in being allied with the EU and west than they are russia

we’re gonna have to agree to disagree

if you want to live in a world where someone like putin is allowed to do as they want without the international community stepping in, that’s on you to defend

that’s a world i want no part of

[ousdahl]

About that much, I agree with you.

I don’t want someone like Putin going as far as they want without some international community stepping in, either. (At least militarily. Good faith diplomacy, have at it, if that’s even possible)

Where you and I disagree, is that I’m skeptical of the United States going as far as they want without any international community stepping in too.

And NO, this isn’t an endorsement of Russia, it’s an endorsement of world peace!

[KUTradition]

seems that russia has recently become the largest supplier of arms to Ukraine…go figure

[ousdahl]

well I guess that's an interesting twist to the whole #StandWithUkraine thing

[MICHHAWK]

that would be a classic example of both colonialism, capitalism and imperialism. at its' best. and its' worst.

wouldn't you agree.

[ousdahl]

actually, yea I might agree.

I wish we could get more analysis on the capitalism elements of it.

Cuuuz isn't the elephant in the room, once again, big oil? That's why somebody blowed up the Nord Stream, right? So now that the Ruskie fuel is 86'd, who gets to sell energy to Europe now? And aren't there some other critical energy pipelines that run, coincidentally enough, right through Ukraine? There's gotta be some angle to that too, right?

I'm not saying I understand it. But just generally I think I'd be more inclined to accept some explanation along the lines of capitalism and market opportunities and such, than some oversimplified feel-good "freedom and democracy" rhetoric.