Let’s have a war!

[MICHHAWK]

after great thought, i might be inclined to stir in a little asceticism into that cocktail of nasty old ism's that seems to be plagueing this world.

down with the ism.

[ousdahl]

celebrated!

[ousdahl]

[KUTradition]

https://www.thetrumpet.com/26134-russia ... n-campaign

and

https://www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/miss-c ... ation/#app

[ousdahl]

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[KUTradition]

lol, Ousie

https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/u ... d-ukraine/

https://www.foxnews.com/world/russia-in ... ission.amp

https://www.info-res.org/post/the-kreml ... propaganda

https://www.newstatesman.com/world/euro ... da-ukraine

https://khpg.org/en/1582641152

https://www.codastory.com/newsletters/u ... education/

[ousdahl]

This is a lot of links at once! Especially with no further commentary to go with.

It looks like Russia is sending in teachers to Ukraine? To indoctrinate? And has been for a while?

[KUTradition]

it’s evidence of one side behaving like nazis…but not the side you think

[ousdahl]

[ousdahl]

it’s evidence of one side behaving like nazis…but not the side you think

at face value, a country sending teachers in another country may be more than anything diplomatic.

May be!

but yea, if it's Russia doing it, it's definitely sus. Probably even nefarious.

Sorry, but I didn't read every bit of every link you posted. What are the details of what they're teaching? What exactly are they being indoctrinated with?

[KUTradition]

twitter is worse than wikipedia as far as being your mainstay resource for fact

how many confirmed bots have been uncovered due to the musk saga? and users don’t care, which is hilarious and troubling at the same time

it’s much like the fake news nonsense on FB…the evidence is there that there are serious issues with the resource, yet users just can’t help themselves

[KUTradition]

what’s “funny” about all of this is that nearly every single european ally has a “neo-nazi” problem…not to mention the US’ own issues

why aren’t there any posts lamenting our partnerships with France, Germany, or the UK - particularly when some of those country’s group have direct ties to those here in the US?

and let me, again, be clear: i’m not defending those groups or trying to say they aren’t a problem - they very obviously are. the point i’ve tried to make over and over, and will continue to make as long as you keep posting one-sided and misleading tweets, is that focusing on such groups in Ukraine is a putin-esque distraction from the real, major travesty that has been unfolding since february

[ousdahl]

yea, it's good to be skeptical of everything, particularly nowadays, with social media and all.

I think that's the big difference between you and me in this thread though.

I DO try to be skeptical of everything! You only seem to be skeptical when the facts don't fit your preferred narrative.

and I don't mean to be too antagonistic. I hope I can offer that observation matter of factly, and with whatever constructive value it may offer. And I realize you say the same things about me. I'd try to suggest "the truth is in the middle" again, but we can all remember mjl's meltdown last time I said that.

All I mean is, I'm the only one condemning Russian aggression AND the Ukrainian aggression too! And all the aggression around the world at any given time, whether we hear about it or not! You seem to be able to pick and choose when and where to care, based on little more than the prescribed "good guy bad guy" rhetoric.

You, and so many others in this thread, seem to advocate for militant aggression as if it's some kind of solution, even though none of you have ever served in the military, nor have any intention to. It's a lot easier to be a war hawk when it's someone else going to die instead, ain't it?

Among other things to discuss, maybe we should start a whole new thread on classism.

[KUTradition]

militant aggression =\= defense of sovereignty

and what, exactly, is my preferred narrative?

[KUTradition]

and the idea of being skeptical of everything while simultaneously flooding these pages with one-sided tweets doesn’t jive

[ousdahl]

what’s “funny” about all of this is that nearly every single european ally has a “neo-nazi” problem…not to mention the US’ own issues

why aren’t there any posts lamenting our partnerships with France, Germany, or the UK - particularly when some of those country’s group have direct ties to those here in the US?

and let me, again, be clear: i’m not defending those groups or trying to say they aren’t a problem - they very obviously are. the point i’ve tried to make over and over, and will continue to make as long as you keep posting one-sided and misleading tweets, is that focusing on such groups in Ukraine is a putin-esque distraction from the real, major travesty that has been unfolding since february

If I may try to respond to your question - whether in France, or Germany, or the UK, or the US, or Russia, or Ukraine, or wherever - I condemn ALL nazis, fascists, ethno-nationalists, far right radicals, or anyone else who tries for some ideology of intolerance, regardless of where they're from.

What makes Ukraine nazis unique though, is, we're giving them tens of bajillions of Mich's tax dollars worth of weapons, and with little oversight otherwise. Can that be said anywhere else? At least to the degree it's been happening? And we've KNOWN there's some sorta humanitarian crisis going on in Ukraine for years, largely along ethnic lines, largely perpetrated by some sort of far right radicals.

and thanks for clarifying that you're not defending them or trying to say they aren't a problem. Except that your rhetoric of "we need to just dismiss or otherwise ignore this particular nazi problem cuz the bigger end game is fuck the Russians" just doesn't seem like the healthiest view, either.

and, bear in mind, there is PLENTY of evidence from PLENTY of reputable western sources to suggest we knew about a militant right problem in Ukraine for years. We've just been told we're supposed to shrug that off now in favor of oversimplified good guy bad guy narratives?

[ousdahl]

and the idea of being skeptical of everything while simultaneously flooding these pages with one-sided tweets doesn’t jive

what constitutes "one-sided?"

[twocoach]

Haven't we been over all of this ground before?

Ous says that we are giving all this money to nazis.
Someone else points out that the entire Ukrainian military is in fact, not all nazis and that the military of other countries, including our own, likely have people in them who hold nazi beliefs.
Then we go round and round with seemingly no end in sight.

[ousdahl]

militant aggression =\= defense of sovereignty

and what, exactly, is my preferred narrative?

as far as I can tell, while you do acknowledge that nazis are a problem, you seem determined to discredit any evidence of nazis being problem in Ukraine specifically, and shrug off the fact they're getting weapons from you and me, as if that's somehow immaterial to the Ukraine conflict as a whole. Apparently, you'd rather ignore nazis in favor of sticking it to Russia.

It seems to have "now is not the time to talk about gun violence" vibes. If it's not appropriate to address nazis in a war involving nazis, when IS it appropriate?

That, and you seem to like the warm fuzzy "freedom and democracy" rhetoric, as if the best way to promote as much is arms, arms, arms! and as if it would be unfree and undemocratic to afford the people of the regions in conflict some free and democratic vote of their own.

on the most general level possible, you seem to have difficulty grasping some comprehensive anti-war stance, while I've apparently gone all in on it.

I dunno. I don't wanna fight. I guess the only reason I still bring it up is, the off chance we actually make some constructive progress in this discussion. And, maybe, just maybe, I can convince you and others that an anti-war stance is a good stance to be taking now, and going forward.

and I don't mean to gaslight, so don't let me. If you'd like to clarify your narrative and views, please do.

[ousdahl]

Haven't we been over all of this ground before?

I guess if there IS some new development here it's things like Elon Musk calling for an end to the war on freedom and democracy grounds, as well as some angle about Russia sending teachers to indoctrinate

also I'd like to rip that Waffen SS shirt right off that Alina chick, but not in a misogynistic way I promise, it's purely a matter of antifascist ideology