Let’s have a war!

[PhDhawk]

You're actually coming across as a right wing extremist. You sound like tucker or Steve Bannon, or Dinesh D'Souza.

I think most bleeding hearts would have sympathy for the attacked country not the attacking one.

And, I don't speak for everyone, but I never gave a shit about your stupid sock.

[TDub]

I dont believe (could be wrong) that anyone gave a shit about your dumbass sock or its schtick. Even as your sock you had a posting style.....very different from the one in this thread.

[Qusdahl]

I learned something about myself and my radicalization in this thread the is week:

Whenever I hear about some overseas conflict in which Merica or someone Merica is arming and training is involved, I no longer just promptly and blindly accept we must be the good guys by default. Our track record don’t really allow for that no more. Does anyone think it should?

But apparently many of you guys equated that to being pro-Russia. Despite me condemning Russia over and over again. It’s like you’d rather put down some pre-conceived notion of me, rather than just take me at face value.

I’ll admit, maybe the nazi angle isn’t as significant in this situation as I thought. Forgive me if I hear about militant Nazis somewhere and assume it’s part of the problem.

And for a bunch of doods who don’t give a shit about a sock, you sure do put a lot of effort into bickering with that sock anyway.

[Qusdahl]

And I haven’t paid a ton of attention to the far right reception, but apparently it’s strangely pro-Russia.

If I may ask, is it pro-Russia cuz they’re buying the propaganda that he’s fighting Nazis? I kinda doubt it. I bet most mainstream media and the far right in particular has made little if any mention. If they did mention, it’s prob just quickly dismissed as Russian propaganda, just like you guys are doing.

Downplaying white supremacy is kinda their thing. If anything, much of the far right would prob NOT like the idea of fighting Nazis. Why attack your own kind?

I’m guessing the right’s weird infatuation with Russia starts and ends with, cuz of Trump’s weird infatuation with Putin?

[KUTradition]

i’d be curious to know to what extent you think neo-nazis have infiltrated Ukraine

putin seems to think the country is led by neo-nazi drug addicts, including their Jewish president

and i’ll hold you to the same standard as i hold anyone else…provide the sources from which you’re getting your information

… Many of the National Militia's members come from the Azov movement, one of the 30-odd privately-funded “volunteer battalions” that, in the early days of the war, helped the regular army to defend Ukrainian territory against Russia's separatist proxies. Although Azov uses Nazi-era symbolism and recruits neo-Nazis into its ranks, a recent article in Foreign Affairs downplayed any risks the group might pose, pointing out that, like other volunteer militias, Azov has been “reined in” through its integration into Ukraine’s armed forces. While it’s true that private militias no longer rule the battlefront, it’s the home front that Kiev needs to worry about now...

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-cohe ... SKBN1GV2TY

and yes, such groups are definitely a problem…but, a problem that warrants war? it would seem their shenanigans would be better dealt with through diplomatic channels, which putin very much could have done but didn’t. nor did anyone else, including but definitely not limited to the US. it makes me honestly wonder just how big of an issue they really are…most assuredly not a big enough issue to warrant invasion and war.

it’s also odd, that if these groups are so entwined into the military and law enforcement, and supposedly part of the impetus behind the invasion, that putin would ask them directly to stage a coup and overthrow the democratically elected government

something doesn’t add up, at least from where i sit

the last thing i’ll say on this matter, is that it seems to me that we’re doing exactly what putin would want…talking about issues other than his manufactured war

[Qusdahl]

To the extent I know, neo-Nazis are mostly among the Azov batallion, which, according to its Wikipedia page, describes itself as 10-20% of the ranks. Like I said, forgive me if I assumed militant Nazis were a bigger problem.

Lefty alert! NO problem should warrant war. Let’s use diplomatic channels! And thanks for acknowledging that should apply to everyone, even Merica.

I can’t help but wonder tho, just how credible this Ukrainian gummint is, if it’s basically some ragtag collection of “volunteer battalions.” That would be like if the U.S. military was mostly just Proud Boy type groups?

Since the 2014 conflict, there’s basically been a civil war in Ukraine, between western-leaning Ukrainians and Ukrainians who would rather stick to Russia.

And, sure, maybe this is Putin’s manufactured war. But that also seems shortsighted. It could at least as easily be said it’s Merica’s manufactured war, even if a proxy war, considering we’ve been pumping weapons into the Ukraine since at least 2014.

Heck, Biden just promptly gave em another tree fiddy million in aid today! (Remember how long we bickered about whether Merican folks deserve $1200? Lol)

[Qusdahl]

The Ukrainian protests of 2013-14 and subsequent coup seem to be noteworthy.

Here’s a British journalist’s take on Ukraine in 2014, a couple months after the regime change:

https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... v-conflict

It's not Russia that's pushed Ukraine to the brink of war

The attempt to lever Kiev into the western camp by ousting an elected leader made conflict certain. It could be a threat to us all

The threat of war in Ukraine is growing. As the unelected government in Kiev declares itself unable to control the rebellion in the country's east, John Kerry brands Russia a rogue state. The US and the European Union step up sanctions against the Kremlin, accusing it of destabilising Ukraine. The White House is reported to be set on a new cold war policy with the aim of turning Russia into a "pariah state".

That might be more explicable if what is going on in eastern Ukraine now were not the mirror image of what took place in Kiev a couple of months ago. Then, it was armed protesters in Maidan Square seizing government buildings and demanding a change of government and constitution. US and European leaders championed the "masked militants" and denounced the elected government for its crackdown, just as they now back the unelected government's use of force against rebels occupying police stations and town halls in cities such as Slavyansk and Donetsk.
"America is with you," Senator John McCain told demonstrators then, standing shoulder to shoulder with the leader of the far-right Svoboda party as the US ambassador haggled with the state department over who would make up the new Ukrainian government.
When the Ukrainian president was replaced by a US-selected administration, in an entirely unconstitutional takeover, politicians such as William Hague brazenly misled parliament about the legality of what had taken place: the imposition of a pro-western government on Russia's most neuralgic and politically divided neighbour.

…

After Crimeans voted overwhelmingly to join Russia, the bulk of the western media abandoned any hint of even-handed coverage. So Putin is now routinely compared to Hitler, while the role of the fascistic right on the streets and in the new Ukrainian regime has been airbrushed out of most reporting as Putinist propaganda.
So you don't hear much about the Ukrainian government's veneration of wartime Nazi collaborators and pogromists, or the arson attacks on the homes and offices of elected communist leaders, or the integration of the extreme Right Sector into the national guard, while the anti-semitism and white supremacism of the government's ultra-nationalists is assiduously played down, and false identifications of Russian special forces are relayed as fact.

…

Meanwhile, the US and its European allies impose sanctions and dictate terms to Russia and its proteges in Kiev, encouraging the military crackdown on protesters after visits from Joe Biden and the CIA director, John Brennan. But by what right is the US involved at all, incorporating under its strategic umbrella a state that has never been a member of Nato, and whose last elected government came to power on a platform of explicit neutrality? It has none, of course – which is why the Ukraine crisis is seen in such a different light across most of the world. There may be few global takers for Putin's oligarchic conservatism and nationalism, but Russia's counterweight to US imperial expansion is welcomed, from China to Brazil.
In fact, one outcome of the crisis is likely to be a closer alliance between China and Russia…

Among other thoughts - how often is a coup in some other country met with visits by the likes of John McCain and Joe Biden to voice their support?

(Of course, many lefties allege those “masked militants” were the CIA…)

[TDub]

there is one component of this I will agree with...it is particularly difficult to verify or trust almost any of the information we are given. Especially with the prevalence of bots and active misinformation campaigns, the ability to fake news and sources is becoming increasingly improved.

[sdoyel]

Gutter…

[sdoyel]

He needs 2 weeks.

[Mjl]

And if we may discuss Jewish people in Ukraine, why did that population go from nearly half a million in 1989, to only 67k as of 2014?

The list is under “post war situation” on this wiki page:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History ... in_Ukraine

That's quite the cherry picked year. First off, it wasn't Ukraine, it was the USSR. anti-Semitism was very bad there, and they didn't allow the Jews to get Visas or whatever documentation was needed to leave. That changed in 1990-91. So that's when they, including my wife and her family and a lot of other friends and acquaintances of mine, left.

Jews in the Soviet Union were allowed to be either engineers or teachers, that's about it. Now, in Ukraine, they can be President, or whatever else they want to be.

You are making it sound like it got worse, and I can't tell if that's ignorant or intentionally misleading.

[RainbowsandUnicorns]

Gutter…

?

[Qusdahl]

Thanks mjl. I saw that point elsewhere, suggesting it was cuz of an uptick in nazism post USSR but not really fleshed out, and figured there was more to it.

It’s cool that now Jewish folks have it better there (hopefully…I mean not even Merica has had a Jewish President, right?)

But still generally sucks that so many folks in this world hate so many others over dumb dividing things like, what religion you are/believe, and stuff.

[sdoyel]

Someone cut off the cash flow…

[jfish26]

So, the two major stories right now are: (1) Russia has ordered its nuclear forces to higher alert, and (2) a Ukrainian delegation is going to meet with a Russian delegation on the Belarus border.

Methinks these are not unrelated stories. And if I’m right, betrays Russia’s weakness.

[sdoyel]

So, the two major stories right now are: (1) Russia has ordered its nuclear forces to higher alert, and (2) a Ukrainian delegation is going to meet with a Russian delegation on the Belarus border.

Methinks these are not unrelated stories. And if I’m right, betrays Russia’s weakness.

The US and it’s allies would turn Russia into a pile of ashes. Putin better watch what he says…

[jfish26]

So, the two major stories right now are: (1) Russia has ordered its nuclear forces to higher alert, and (2) a Ukrainian delegation is going to meet with a Russian delegation on the Belarus border.

Methinks these are not unrelated stories. And if I’m right, betrays Russia’s weakness.

The US and it’s allies would turn Russia into a pile of ashes. Putin better watch what he says…

Unfortunately that would be in MAD territory.

Our best-case scenario by far here is that the knives come out.

[sdoyel]

Russia’s hearts aren’t in this fight. The question is: Does taking his ball and going home mean he starts pressing the nuclear buttons???

[jfish26]

Russia’s hearts aren’t in this fight. The question is: Does taking his ball and going home mean he starts pressing the nuclear buttons???

I think he knows this is all happening faster than is publicly known. Decent chance that by the time we wake up tomorrow, there will have been a run on the banks in Russia. If that is joined with coordinated oligarch asset seizures around the world…the noose tightens.

[sdoyel]

The hits keep on coming.