Let’s have a war!

[DeletedUser]

And JFC, Lobster doesn't even know who you are. Stop pretending you were scared for your life over a messageboard post.

[KUTradition]

Didn’t mean to mischaracterize

bullshit

that’s your thing…this is at least the 4th time i’ve called you out for it, yet you persist

it has ceased being an honest accident/mistake, but rather seems to be a go-to in your rhetorical approach

spare me the hollow apologies

[jfish26]

No, you don't have this right.

I was gonna try rephrasing the "fool me once" point, but what I think will be more constructive to instead start by asking:

What you find so difficult to understand about the argument that the "WMDs in Iraq" rhetoric (that turned out to be bullshit) is reason to view with skepticism subsequent rhetoric from the exact same dipshits?

Cuz I was gonna say my argument at bottom is something like that.

But, instead, I think we should zoom out further yet, and just say my argument is that you are among a handful of posters here who seem severely under the influence of Cold War propaganda.

Maybe zooming even further, but related, if I may ask:

What do you think of the U.S. throwing bajillions of weapons to Taiwan now too?

If China were to respond aggressively, what then?

Flares and chaff. Flailing around in janky, discombobulated search of goalposts when they are right in front of you, you just don’t like that the ball you kick doesn’t go through them.

Other people can (and do) speak for themselves on what you’re doing in this thread, and how it’s making engagement impossible and dragging down this and other threads. For me, it’s all of the shit in the blender, endlessly.

Please focus, and explain how “WMDs in Iraq” makes everyone else wrong, and you and Vlad and Don and Kim right, on what has happened and is happening in Ukraine.

What exactly is the “WMDs in Iraq” argument, as relating to Ukraine?

[DeletedUser]

Sure glad it's a golf day. Things are off to a hot start around here.

[jfish26]

Bottoms up!

[ousdahl]

No, you don't have this right.

I was gonna try rephrasing the "fool me once" point, but what I think will be more constructive to instead start by asking:

What you find so difficult to understand about the argument that the "WMDs in Iraq" rhetoric (that turned out to be bullshit) is reason to view with skepticism subsequent rhetoric from the exact same dipshits?

Cuz I was gonna say my argument at bottom is something like that.

But, instead, I think we should zoom out further yet, and just say my argument is that you are among a handful of posters here who seem severely under the influence of Cold War propaganda.

Maybe zooming even further, but related, if I may ask:

What do you think of the U.S. throwing bajillions of weapons to Taiwan now too?

If China were to respond aggressively, what then?

Flares and chaff. Flailing around in janky, discombobulated search of goalposts when they are right in front of you, you just don’t like that the ball you kick doesn’t go through them.

Other people can (and do) speak for themselves on what you’re doing in this thread, and how it’s making engagement impossible and dragging down this and other threads. For me, it’s all of the shit in the blender, endlessly.

Please focus, and explain how “WMDs in Iraq” makes everyone else wrong, and you and Vlad and Don and Kim right, on what has happened and is happening in Ukraine.

What exactly is the “WMDs in Iraq” argument, as relating to Ukraine?

Considering what a deception the "WMDs in Iraq" rhetoric turned out to be, then why should dipshits who perpetrated it be trusted about anything subsequent?

If somebody told you they had some oceanfront property in Idaho they wanted to sell you, and you bought it, and you pack your shit and get up there and realize oh shit Idaho is landlocked, then they say oopie lol, but btw for real this time the oceanfront property I have for you is actually in Wyoming, would you start packing your shit again?

Cuz the way you sound right now is, yeah, you would start packing your shit again. Your friends try to say, I dunno fish maybe this oceanfront realtor dood is trying to pull another one on you, but you accuse them of flares and chaff, and very stubbornly keep packing, cuz this is all very simple.

and, no offense, but speaking of flailing - why did you dodge the questions about Taiwan and China?

[ousdahl]

there are pages upon pages upon pages upon pages in this very thread of multiple posters, myself included, giving you the benefit of the doubt and providing all sorts of evidence for why this is absolutely a “west good, putin bad” situation


this largely gets to the gist of it.

Yes, you guys have provided evidence of why this absolutely a "west good, Putin bad" situation. I wouldn't say it's "all sorts" of evidence, since "all sorts" seems to inherently get a little more complex and nuanced, and the "good guy bad guy" rhetoric is inherently simple.

and I've provided all sorts of evidence that maybe a geopolitical conflict that's now years-long and decades in the making and involving many nations across several continents, really is actually a little more complex yet.

It's you guys who just summarily ignore that evidence, to instead double down on the good guy bad guy rhetoric - which is the contemporaneous Russia/Ukraine equivalent to the Iraq WMDs rhetoric! - not to mention making a very conspicuous point to not understand so many other conflicts everywhere, while affording little if any benefit of the doubt.

in other words, you guys have kinda been hitting the western propaganda sauce a little hard...bottoms up?

[jfish26]

No, you don't have this right.

I was gonna try rephrasing the "fool me once" point, but what I think will be more constructive to instead start by asking:

What you find so difficult to understand about the argument that the "WMDs in Iraq" rhetoric (that turned out to be bullshit) is reason to view with skepticism subsequent rhetoric from the exact same dipshits?

Cuz I was gonna say my argument at bottom is something like that.

But, instead, I think we should zoom out further yet, and just say my argument is that you are among a handful of posters here who seem severely under the influence of Cold War propaganda.

Maybe zooming even further, but related, if I may ask:

What do you think of the U.S. throwing bajillions of weapons to Taiwan now too?

If China were to respond aggressively, what then?

Flares and chaff. Flailing around in janky, discombobulated search of goalposts when they are right in front of you, you just don’t like that the ball you kick doesn’t go through them.

Other people can (and do) speak for themselves on what you’re doing in this thread, and how it’s making engagement impossible and dragging down this and other threads. For me, it’s all of the shit in the blender, endlessly.

Please focus, and explain how “WMDs in Iraq” makes everyone else wrong, and you and Vlad and Don and Kim right, on what has happened and is happening in Ukraine.

What exactly is the “WMDs in Iraq” argument, as relating to Ukraine?

Considering what a deception the "WMDs in Iraq" rhetoric turned out to be, then why should dipshits who perpetrated it be trusted about anything subsequent?

If somebody told you they had some oceanfront property in Idaho they wanted to sell you, and you bought it, and you pack your shit and get up there and realize oh shit Idaho is landlocked, then they say oopie lol, but btw for real this time the oceanfront property I have for you is actually in Wyoming, would you start packing your shit again?

Cuz the way you sound right now is, yeah, you would start packing your shit again. Your friends try to say, I dunno fish maybe this oceanfront realtor dood is trying to pull another one on you, but you accuse them of flares and chaff, and very stubbornly keep packing, cuz this is all very simple.

and, no offense, but speaking of flailing - why did you dodge the questions about Taiwan and China?

I am beginning to think the only person who knows the actual argument you are trying to make is your summer camp girlfriend who lives in Canada and is totally real, but no we can’t see her.

“Bush lied about WMDs in Iraq” is evidence that supports (I would hope) a specific argument about Ukraine. Not a free-form jazz-blues odyssey of US foreign policy riffs.

A specific argument.

What, in one sentence, IS that argument?

[KUTradition]

… a free-form jazz-blues odyssey of US foreign policy riffs.

that’s quite literally all he’s got

he either lacks the ability, or willingness (not sure which is worse), to focus…it’s why he continues to dump seemingly any and every foreign policy topic into this thread

as i said before, it’s some weird, twisted crusade…which only seems to piss off other posters and ruin what might otherwise be genuine and honest discussions

Cascadia seems to have been right…it’s all a trolling act

[twocoach]

Heads up! I’m not the one posting the grunting.

But perhaps trad does it to amuse the illy/tdub circle jerk, cuz boy do you guys like it, dontcha?

And BTW if it really needs to be said my sanction/speak to congress comment was facetious. I think it’s silly to be concerned about war crimes allegations not cuz of the objective credibility and severity of the allegations themselves, but only when it satisfies one’s good guy bad guy world views.

More generally, my persistence in this thread is out of a certain fascination I find in observing those who have learned not. one. single. god. damn. thing! from WMDs in Iraq, among other geopolitical lulz.

Rather than even consider a thing beyond that, you insult and put down and dodge and duck and dip and dive and dodge and normalize death threats and grunt. Like literally fucking grunt.

It’s quite the case study.

Yes, watching you get bent out of shape at a smartass response to your admittedly smartass response is quite the case study indeed.

and yet, when prompted to clarify, one poster did so by articulating his position and concerns, and the other poster...uh, kept grunting.

Having someone continue to be a smartass even when posed serious questions in response to their original smartass statement is certainly frustrating, isn't it?

[Shirley]

Who knew that GW Bush, Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld, John Bolton, and Colin Powell still run US foreign policy?

[jhawks99]

Who knew that GW Bush, Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld, John Bolton, and Colin Powell still run US foreign policy?

They're the deep state

[twocoach]

Who knew that GW Bush, Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld, John Bolton, and Colin Powell still run US foreign policy?

You know, "the gummit". They're all the same. Nothing ever changes or has it's own set of circumstances.

Look, I get it. I don't trust the government to tell me the entire truth about everything. Frankly, they shouldn't as I don't want to know every sorted detail of some of the ugliness it takes to make the proverbial sausage. But this is just so old and tiresome.

[DeletedUser]

I think most of us are willing to acknowledge that throughout our history the US has made mistakes. Lied. Pushed propaganda. Etc.


Do we have to do that each time something happens? Because it seems silly. Russia is the bad guy here. In this instance.

That doesn't mean Ukraine is perfect.

This isn't hard.

[jfish26]

Who knew that GW Bush, Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld, John Bolton, and Colin Powell still run US foreign policy?

I mean, let's cut right to the point: what I am trying to understand is how, specifically, the US' own foreign policy failures and shortcomings should influence my views on Putin's war on Ukraine.

Because right now, it's a hell of a lot of this:



In litigation, you lose before a trial if the judge determines that, viewing the facts in the light most favorable to you, drawing any reasonable inferences in your favor, there is simply not a material fact in dispute that needs to be submitted to the jury.

Here, let's grant (for the sake of argument) that the entire foreign policy apparatus of the United States government lied about WMDs in Iraq, and let's even grant (again, for the sake of argument) that the United States benefits economically, politically and militarily from the war in Ukraine.

Even taking those things to be TRUE, this war - and everything that comes of it, and the moral responsibility to end it - simply belongs solely to Putin.

[jfish26]

I think most of us are willing to acknowledge that throughout our history the US has made mistakes. Lied. Pushed propaganda. Etc.


Do we have to do that each time something happens? Because it seems silly. Russia is the bad guy here. In this instance.

That doesn't mean Ukraine is perfect.

This isn't hard.

Exactly.

[KUTradition]

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/eu ... 0to%20come.

[jfish26]

Good.

It is so, so heartbreaking that Europe is having to actively gird against a future in which the United States is effectively allied with Russia, China, Iran and North Korea.

[TDub]

NK supposedly sending troops to fight Ukraine within a month.

[KUTradition]

no bueno