Let’s have a war!

[japhy]

Pravda

https://www.yahoo.com/news/putin-1999-a ... 01959.html

[Qusdahl]

So before we move the goalposts and start into oil prices; have you conceded that the “Baker-Gorbachev negotiations” ploy by Putin is just more of his delusional bullshit?

And the Azov Battalion?; in all of it's configurations over the years under different Ukraine presidents. Was Putin justified in using that as a measure to say the current administration in Ukraine is neo-nazi and therefore he had to invade to stop the Nazis on his doorstep or was that another bullshit ruse?

move the goalposts...but when does the US ever have a war that DOESN'T involve oil prices? you think we're picking fights with Russia just for the lulz?

I honestly haven't seen anything Putin (fuck him) said directly about Baker-Gorbachev. It's just added context to why Russia is so nervous about the US and NATO playing war with Ukrainian volunteer militias on Russia's doorstep. But once again, we're supposed to downplay any context here and pretend this all happened on a whim.

I do think, though, that both of these things can be true:

- Putin's rhetoric is bullshit, and fuck him.

- Even if it's part of Putin's bullshit rhetoric, there really are still issues with far right neo-nazi ultra-nationalist fascism in Ukraine either way

and many of these are the guys we're in bed with! They're fortified by weapons and training paid for by you and me, in some deal made to advance some US/NATO interests in Ukraine that we don't even necessarily understand, and certainly don't understand as well as we should, cuz of all the bullshit rhetoric, not to mention how all the bullshit rhetoric has conditioned us to just pick and choose which wars to care about, and accept it as inevitable, and pick a side

I guess my question now is, if we can all agree that Putin's rhetoric is bullshit, how are we also so quick to accept the Pentagon's rhetoric is air tight? Did we really learn nothing from WMDs in Iraq?

[Qusdahl]

Re: the Azov Battalion, yeah like you said, the US inevitably has issues with neo-nazis among their military ranks as well. But the difference is, US neo-nazis aren't allowed to display swastikas on their US uniforms and flags, and official US military media isn't allowed to tweet about how other ethnic groups are "orcs," and the US national guard isn't allowed to commit war crimes against entire communities of fellow US citizens.

That's only allowed by other countries being emboldened with US/NATO weapons and training, and is willing to be shrugged off as long as it advances US/NATO interests? Or as long as the wartime rhetoric downplays that enough that there just isn't enough public outrage otherwise?

as scary as we think Russia is, bear in mind how much of the rest of the world thinks the US and NATO are even scarier.

[Qusdahl]

Here's a tweet from that radical Russian propaganda bot, PBS NewsHour.



This Ukrainian mayor brags about killing Russian "cockroaches" with US weapons. Seems awful dehumanizing, but let's just chalk that up to more of Putin's bullshit rhetoric, I guess.

And it turns out that mayor, Artem Semenikhin, has quite the rep himself, at least according to this 2015 article from this pro-Putin wartime rag, the Jerusalem Post:

https://www.jpost.com/diaspora/ukrainia ... yor-437975

oh, and that portrait on his office wall behind him that they made a half-assed attempt to blur? That appears to be a famous pic of Stepan Bandera, some ultra nationalist, ethnic cleansing, Hitler-collaborating...uh, Putin rhetorical device, who remains quite the hero among far-right Ukrainians today.

[KUTradition]

bear in mind how much of the rest of the world thinks the US and NATO are even scarier.

wut?

do you have a non-twitter/non-reddit link to support this?

and be specific, please. just how much of the rest of the world thinks this?

also, is the rest of the industrialized world getting their propaganda marching orders from the pentagon? cuz it sure seems like there are a lot of similar opinions.

specifically though, it was pretty much only the US that was foreboding the invasion right up until it happened…i’d imagine most in eastern europe, including Ukraine, wish they woulda believed the pentagon propaganda more

[Qusdahl]

That is a good question.

The answer is quite the can of worms in itself, tho this article appears to be a good start:

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/14/opin ... ummit.html

[Qusdahl]

just saw Visa/Mastercard/Amex are suspending operations in Russia

that may be a double edged sword, cuz apparently Russia is switching over to some Chinese card payment system instead

[NewtonHawk11]

I think the Visa and Mastercard ban is a big hit for the economy. Ukraine just has to wait this thing out until Russians get completely sick of all the financial sanctions and all the oligarchs are fed up. I mean, a big oligarch is selling Chelsea FC to prevent stuff from being seized. That's a huge money maker for that guy.

[KUTradition]

That is a good question.

The answer is quite the can of worms in itself, tho this article appears to be a good start:

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/14/opin ... ummit.html

thanks for not answering any of my questions, lobs

good job

[twocoach]

just saw Visa/Mastercard/Amex are suspending operations in Russia

that may be a double edged sword, cuz apparently Russia is switching over to some Chinese card payment system instead

Russians can still use their Visa and MC plastics for domestic purcahses. They just will not be able to do international transactions. US issued plastics will also not be able to do transactions originated in Russia.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... chases-mir

Some Russian banks will start issuing China UnionPay cards, which is just another card type like AMEX, Visa, MasterCard, JCB, etc... others will begin using MIR cards, issued by the Russian processing company. Stats show that more than half of all Russians already have a MIR card and that MIR cards represent 32% of all of their transaction volumes.

Sounds like I will be working a project this week to get Russian originated transactions for our bank's cardholders shut off depending on some clarification we get from Visa today.

[twocoach]

I think the Visa and Mastercard ban is a big hit for the economy. Ukraine just has to wait this thing out until Russians get completely sick of all the financial sanctions and all the oligarchs are fed up. I mean, a big oligarch is selling Chelsea FC to prevent stuff from being seized. That's a huge money maker for that guy.

It's not as big as if it happened to the US. Most Russians will be able to go about their daily lives with zero impact other than having to switch some card numbers on some auto-pay items. There are other primary card types in use over there that are prevalent in their country.

[NewtonHawk11]

Something like 210 million cardholders by those companies in Russia. That's quite a bit. It's not as much of a hit as it would be in the US, for sure. But it's not a small thing either.

[jfish26]

I think the Visa and Mastercard ban is a big hit for the economy. Ukraine just has to wait this thing out until Russians get completely sick of all the financial sanctions and all the oligarchs are fed up. I mean, a big oligarch is selling Chelsea FC to prevent stuff from being seized. That's a huge money maker for that guy.

It's not as big as if it happened to the US. Most Russians will be able to go about their daily lives with zero impact other than having to switch some card numbers on some auto-pay items. There are other primary card types in use over there that are prevalent in their country.

It's another brick in the wall that is isolating Russia from western economies. It's going to get awfully 1990 in Russia, in a hurry.

[KUTradition]

apparently, putin is now demanding the nuclear disarming of europe

wait, what? i thought this was all about nazis and breakaway Ukrainian regions…

[japhy]

I honestly haven't seen anything Putin (fuck him) said directly about Baker-Gorbachev. It's just added context to why Russia is so nervous about the US and NATO playing war with Ukrainian volunteer militias on Russia's doorstep. But once again, we're supposed to downplay any context here and pretend this all happened on a whim.

Then honestly, where did you come up with that question? If Putin never said it as a premise to war who did? And why did you bring it up?

There was no "Baker-Gorbachev" agreement that was broken. An agreement is something written and signed. During negotiations a lot of shit gets thrown on the table that gets a verbal "sure, but you have to give us this", and then that request is taken off the table.

Russian President Vladimir Putin and his senior aides have repeatedly claimed that Western powers broke promises they made not to expand NATO as the Soviet Union collapsed.

In his annual end-of-year press conference in Moscow in December, Putin accused NATO of deceiving Russia by giving assurances in the 1990s that it would not expand “an inch to the East” — promises made to Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev during negotiations between the West and the Soviet Union over German unification, the Russian leader said.

“They cheated us — vehemently, blatantly. NATO is expanding,” Putin said. He cited former U.S. Secretary of State James Baker as Exhibit One in his indictment and quoted a remark Baker made to Gorbachev in 1990, saying, “NATO will not move one inch further east.”

The Russian leader has made the claim frequently about NATO skullduggery, accusing Western powers of taking advantage of a weakened, disoriented Russia as the Soviet Union fell apart. And the West’s supposed trickery and violation of a solemn pledge not to expand has figured prominently as an important component in a Putin foreign policy narrative which presents Russia as a victim and aggrieved party.

Russia wasn't "nervous" about anything involving the EU or NATO. NATO has never threatened to invade Russia and the Western money influx is the first prosperity Russia has seen since WWI. Russia did not want to fuck that up. But Putin is a deranged sociopathic killer who is paranoid and worried about everything including his own people. Because he has no friends in Russia or the rest of the world. To be friends there has to be trust, no one can trust Putin.

Now, one more time, why did you bring up Baker-Gorbachev if you know nothing and about it and never heard nothing about it? What did you read and where did it come from to Put this phrase In your head?

[twocoach]

Something like 210 million cardholders by those companies in Russia. That's quite a bit. It's not as much of a hit as it would be in the US, for sure. But it's not a small thing either.

Right, but what percentage of the transactions for those cardholders are international transactions? Their domestic transactions (grocery store, local pharmacy etc...) are not affected by this at all. Those ride the MIR processing rails and do not flow out of the country to hit Visa or MasterCard systems here in the US. And a significant chunk of those cardholders likely have a different card in their wallet or will be getting a new card very soon from China Union Pay, JCB (Japan) or MIR that works just fine for those international transactions. It would be like a US citizen signing up for an AMEX card if Visa and MC went down for a while.

[jfish26]

apparently, putin is now demanding the nuclear disarming of europe

wait, what? i thought this was all about nazis and breakaway Ukrainian regions…

All signs (very very very much including designating anything more aggressive than looking at Russia funny being a declaration of war) point to Putin finally grasping the fundamental weakness of Russia's position here. Easy for me to say here in my riskless chair, but the right play for EU/NATO is to stay the course.

[KUTradition]

apparently, putin is now demanding the nuclear disarming of europe

wait, what? i thought this was all about nazis and breakaway Ukrainian regions…

All signs (very very very much including designating anything more aggressive than looking at Russia funny being a declaration of war) point to Putin finally grasping the fundamental weakness of Russia's position here. Easy for me to say here in my riskless chair, but the right play for EU/NATO is to stay the course.

agreed…just keep on keeping on with support and sanctions

(and working back channels with gina)

[twocoach]

apparently, putin is now demanding the nuclear disarming of europe

wait, what? i thought this was all about nazis and breakaway Ukrainian regions…

All signs (very very very much including designating anything more aggressive than looking at Russia funny being a declaration of war) point to Putin finally grasping the fundamental weakness of Russia's position here. Easy for me to say here in my riskless chair, but the right play for EU/NATO is to stay the course.

Just keep squeezing tighter and tighter until his freaking eyes pop out. Putin's demands are already at the absurd level. Sounds like decades of steroid use is finally catching up with him.

[japhy]

move the goalposts...but when does the US ever have a war that DOESN'T involve oil prices? you think we're picking fights with Russia just for the lulz?

Show me where the non-existent Baker-Gorbachev and Azov battalions have any connection to oil prices until after putin starts a war? While you are at it connect the dots between oil prices and Cuba, Panama, Nicaragua and Viet Nam.