F the NCAA

Kansas Basketball.
jfish26
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Re: F the NCAA

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CrimsonNBlue wrote: Tue Oct 01, 2019 9:18 am There's the obvious interstate commerce issue, but, and this is going back to law school, I don't know that NCAA has standing to challenge until the law goes into effect.
I haven't read the text of the law - it's possible (I guess?) that the law itself is effective now, but certain of its aspects are not effective until a later date? Such that you could challenge it?

I think the law would have been better written to clarify that individuals and schools can contract out of certain provisions (like the competing shoe company thing). I think it's reasonable for a school with a contract to condition scholarship/room+board/etc. on the athlete agreeing to not seek competing NIL money.
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twocoach
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Re: F the NCAA

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jfish26 wrote: Tue Oct 01, 2019 9:08 am
twocoach wrote: Tue Oct 01, 2019 9:04 am
holidaysmore wrote: Mon Sep 30, 2019 4:05 pm

And I believe, using KU as an example a player could sign an endorsement deal with Nike.
No, the CA law explicitly states that a player cannot sign an endorsement deal with an apparel company that is not the same as the company who has the apparel company with the school.
That's one of the aspects of the law that I think make it pretty ripe for challenge.
Seems like a standard conflict of interest avoidance that would hold up in a court challenge.

Maybe way down the line the apparel contracts with schools will better align with the possibility of players repping a different company but that hurdle is pretty far away. Plenty of obstacles between here and there still.
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Re: F the NCAA

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twocoach wrote: Tue Oct 01, 2019 9:21 am
jfish26 wrote: Tue Oct 01, 2019 9:08 am
twocoach wrote: Tue Oct 01, 2019 9:04 am
No, the CA law explicitly states that a player cannot sign an endorsement deal with an apparel company that is not the same as the company who has the apparel company with the school.
That's one of the aspects of the law that I think make it pretty ripe for challenge.
Seems like a standard conflict of interest avoidance that would hold up in a court challenge.

Maybe way down the line the apparel contracts with schools will better align with the possibility of players repping a different company but that hurdle is pretty far away. Plenty of obstacles between here and there still.
It just seems weird to me to use the text of a law to say who can and can't engage in a conflict of interest transaction. I'd say the exact same thing if the law said that schools aren't allowed to enter contracts in conflict with any athlete contracts.

I would note, also, that California courts are incredibly skeptical of anything that smells like restraint on freedom to contract.
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twocoach
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Re: F the NCAA

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jfish26 wrote: Tue Oct 01, 2019 9:27 am
twocoach wrote: Tue Oct 01, 2019 9:21 am
jfish26 wrote: Tue Oct 01, 2019 9:08 am

That's one of the aspects of the law that I think make it pretty ripe for challenge.
Seems like a standard conflict of interest avoidance that would hold up in a court challenge.

Maybe way down the line the apparel contracts with schools will better align with the possibility of players repping a different company but that hurdle is pretty far away. Plenty of obstacles between here and there still.
It just seems weird to me to use the text of a law to say who can and can't engage in a conflict of interest transaction. I'd say the exact same thing if the law said that schools aren't allowed to enter contracts in conflict with any athlete contracts.

I would note, also, that California courts are incredibly skeptical of anything that smells like restraint on freedom to contract.
I have a feeling that lots of this will see its day in a court of law. Plenty of fun to be had between now and 2023 when this is scheduled to go into effect.
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Re: F the NCAA

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Fun isn't the right word, but lots of billable hours for lots of people, that's for sure.
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Re: F the NCAA

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The Fair Pay to Play Act Has Been Signed. Now the NCAA Must Address a Question to Which It’s Never Had a Good Answer.

https://www.theringer.com/2019/10/1/208 ... vin-newsom
While opponents of SB 206 have been fervent in exclaiming how the bill will lead to the decay of college sports (and, gasp, all of society!) as we know it, it’s actually more limited in scope than previous attempts to blow up the NCAA’s amateurism model. The bill isn’t seeking to designate student-athletes as employees or force colleges and universities to pay them via salaries or a trust. It isn’t trying to reconfigure the much-debated value of an athletic scholarship. It is merely set to bar institutions from stripping any athlete’s scholarship or eligibility over getting paid to sign autographs, appear in commercials, endorse products, and the like. It’s aiming to adopt what’s been referred to as “the Olympic model.”

[...]

The biggest hurdle in the fight to do away with college sports amateurism is that the boiler-plate argument against it has always sounded reasonable. I don’t see why schools should have to pay their players, says the man hosting the talk radio show, the man calling into the radio show, your mom, the friend-of-a-friend who attended your tailgate, and Mark Emmert, the NCAA president who gets paid more than $2 million annually to parrot this idea. Don’t they already get scholarships?

[...]

In the debate over NIL rights, however, the situation is flipped. Even if you see the play-for-scholarship exchange as fair, it still requires extensive and hypocritical mental gymnastics to contend that the NCAA should be able to prevent its athletes from partaking in other fair exchanges. This money wouldn’t even come from the schools—we’re talking about outside parties paying players for additional services off the field. Any other college student with a few thousand Instagram followers can get paid for posting a picture with a product; why can’t a student-athlete sell a song or monetize his popular YouTube channel just because he’s an athlete?

The NCAA has never had a particularly good answer for this, because its motivation for outlawing players from profiting off their names, images, and likenesses has always been cynical.

[...]

I’ve heard three primary arguments as to why student-athletes shouldn’t be able to collect money off their names, images, and likenesses. The first is that it would tip the competitive balance of major college sports, especially football and men’s basketball, in favor of deep-pocketed schools whose boosters would shell out colossal piles of cash for prized athletes to sign autographs or appear in ads. For one thing, this isn’t the government’s problem. I believe the government has a legitimate interest in ensuring that its citizens’ rights aren’t trampled by multibillion-dollar corporations, such as the NCAA. I don’t believe the government has a comparable interest in ensuring that two college sports programs have an equal shot at landing a five-star recruit.

[...]

The second argument is that this bill would undermine Title IX, because men’s football and women’s volleyball players, for example, would likely bring in disproportionate levels of pay via endorsement deals. This also doesn’t hold water. Since the money wouldn’t come from the schools, the colleges and universities wouldn’t be funding men’s and women’s athletics differently than they are now, meaning that Title IX would be unaffected.

The third argument—the one preferred and pushed by Emmert—is that very few athletes would benefit from the ability to market themselves. Even if this is true, why should the NCAA oppose a rule that would be good for a few people and bad for nobody? (I guess it would go against the NCAA’s typical strategy of having rules that help a few people and hurt a lot of people.)

[...]

In and of itself, the California bill doesn’t change a lot. It will make college athletics more sensible in one state beginning four years from now. Yet it proves that the NCAA will treat even its least defensible stances as if Moses carried them down Sinai, when in reality the association’s rules were put in place by greedy bureaucrats for the purpose of hoarding ever-increasing stacks of cash. If the NCAA gives way on name, image, and likeness rights and college sports continue existing in roughly the same fashion that they always have, something else will be made clear: This is all just posturing. Treat the NCAA like a toddler with a paper cut, and remember that the sheer volume of complaints does not reflect the severity of its situation.
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CrimsonNBlue
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Re: F the NCAA

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Some thoughts:

1. A state declaring students athletes as employees is the next step after N/I/L, and the talent would have a pretty damn good argument. I believe the NLRB has already weighed in on that situation and it was favorable to the student athletes.

2. The Title IX argument never made sense to me when discussing N/I/L for the reasons cited above.

3. "The third argument—the one preferred and pushed by Emmert—is that very few athletes would benefit from the ability to market themselves." Welcome to the fucking real world.

4. Welcome back NCAA sports video games!
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pdub
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Re: F the NCAA

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"The first is that it would tip the competitive balance of major college sports, especially football and men’s basketball, in favor of deep-pocketed schools whose boosters would shell out colossal piles of cash for prized athletes to sign autographs or appear in ads."

This is my main concern.
The other two arguments aren't impactful but I can see why they could be for some.
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Re: F the NCAA

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CrimsonNBlue wrote: Tue Oct 01, 2019 12:27 pm 4. Welcome back NCAA sports video games!
I am all for this!
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Re: F the NCAA

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pdub wrote: Tue Oct 01, 2019 12:31 pm "The first is that it would tip the competitive balance of major college sports, especially football and men’s basketball, in favor of deep-pocketed schools whose boosters would shell out colossal piles of cash for prized athletes to sign autographs or appear in ads."

This is my main concern.
The other two arguments aren't impactful but I can see why they could be for some.
This doesn't exist now! The same 10 schools in each sport get like 50% of the good recruits. Wonder why.

If anything, money would help level the playing field for lower tier schools.
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pdub
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Re: F the NCAA

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I'm under the impression it would get worse and this would welcome it being worse rather than pushing the other way of finding avenues for athletes to play professionally if they want to.
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Re: F the NCAA

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If you really cared about competitive balance (and not using it as a weird, half-assed watchword to support an unethical and immoral regime), what you'd advocate for are much stricter scholarship limits, like 8-10 in basketball and 60-70 in football.
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pdub
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Re: F the NCAA

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While competitive balance is important, the central issue is making basketball more about the sport than the money at this level.

You want to beat Iowa State more than you do landing that third Weavers sponsored Instagram post.
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twocoach
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Re: F the NCAA

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pdub wrote: Tue Oct 01, 2019 12:31 pm "The first is that it would tip the competitive balance of major college sports, especially football and men’s basketball, in favor of deep-pocketed schools whose boosters would shell out colossal piles of cash for prized athletes to sign autographs or appear in ads."

This is my main concern.
The other two arguments aren't impactful but I can see why they could be for some.
Eh, have you not seen who is winning under today's model in football and basketball? 2017-18 top revenue programs:

1) Texas
2) Texas A&M
3) Ohio State
4) Michigan
5) Alabama
6) Georgia
7) Oklahoma
8) Florida State
9) Penn State
10) Florida

Clemson is 27th. The last team to win the ncaa title in football who is NOT in the Top 30 of current overall revenue was probably Colorado back in 1990.
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twocoach
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Re: F the NCAA

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pdub wrote: Tue Oct 01, 2019 12:50 pm I'm under the impression it would get worse and this would welcome it being worse rather than pushing the other way of finding avenues for athletes to play professionally if they want to.
Why would it get worse? I can create a scenario right now that results in this leveling the field.

I would assume that there are a LOT of programs out there who have boosters and donors who would love to give money to help get better recruits to their program but who do not for fear of breaking an NCAA rule and getting their team in trouble. I'd bet there are a bunch of goody-goody ISU fans who would give anything to grab some better players to beat Kansas. If this change happens, they are finally able to do so within the rules. You could see players spreading out far more now that the pool of teams that have boosters willing to pay without fear of getting their team in trouble increases.
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Re: F the NCAA

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pdub wrote: Tue Oct 01, 2019 1:24 pm While competitive balance is important, the central issue is making basketball more about the sport than the money at this level.
Pretty sure it’s been a long while since it was more about the sport.
You want to beat Iowa State more than you do landing that third Weavers sponsored Instagram post.
wut?
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Re: F the NCAA

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pdub wrote: Tue Oct 01, 2019 1:24 pm While competitive balance is important, the central issue is making basketball more about the sport than the money at this level.

You want to beat Iowa State more than you do landing that third Weavers sponsored Instagram post.
Not your best effort.
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"But don’t ever get it twisted, it’s Rock Chalk forever." MG
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pdub
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Re: F the NCAA

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ousdahl wrote: Tue Oct 01, 2019 2:04 pm
pdub wrote: Tue Oct 01, 2019 1:24 pm While competitive balance is important, the central issue is making basketball more about the sport than the money at this level.
Pretty sure it’s been a long while since it was more about the sport.
You want to beat Iowa State more than you do landing that third Weavers sponsored Instagram post.
wut?
There are a ton of players in college who care more about winning then they do about making money during the years they are playing. The weavers post is a dig on giving a college athlete something that takes priority away from the team -- trying to land those endorsements.

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ousdahl
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Re: F the NCAA

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That’s quite the hypothetical.
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NewtonHawk11
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Re: F the NCAA

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There is 0.0% chance that happens. It doesn't happen in the pros, so why do you think it'll happen in college?
“I don’t remember anything he said, but it was a very memorable speech.” Julian Wright on a speech Michael Jordan gave to a group he was in

"But don’t ever get it twisted, it’s Rock Chalk forever." MG
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