republicans have no shame

[twocoach]

My goodness. To be this ignorant of and naive about the administrative state at this late date.

(Insert goal post moving gif here)

We all know you win the competition for who has read the most books. Congrats. It doesn't change how obviously vile it is to have a President who is so morally bankrupt. Putting an oil exec in charge of the EPA will result in an increase in deaths of US citizens, just to bump up the already astronomical profits of oil companies a few more percentage points thanks to lessening their expenses to manage their toxic pollution.

Look at you out white-knighting this morning!

https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/10/opinions ... index.html

"By 2040, according to analysis by the Environmental Defense Fund (EDF), this rollback of the clean car standards is expected to add 1.5 billion metric tons of climate pollution into the atmosphere, an amount equal to the total pollution from 68 coal-fired power plants operating for five years, and cost Americans more than $244 billion in excess fuel charges. "

Oil companies continue to win under this administration while we continue to lose. US citizens will get to pay more for gas, pay more for additional health care due to increased illnesses caused by the increased pollution and pay more with their lives due to those increased illnesses.

So much winning.

[seahawk]

OK.

Theodore J. Lowi, The End of Liberalism: The Second Republic of the United States

Alfred Kahn, The Economics of Regulation: Principles and Institutions

And especially:

James Q. Wilson, Bureaucracy

It's all pretty standard bureaucratic theory: Technology makes the world complicated. Regulating a complicated world requires specialized knowledge. Specialized knowledge is almost exclusively held by industry practitioners. Therefore, if government wants to regulate, it has to choose primarily from industry practitioners -- most of whom then go back to industry but are even better at their previous jobs because they now have regulatory experience AND contacts.

James Q. Wilson, the cheerleader for mass over incarceration and author of the stupid "Broken Windows" nonsense? You're recommending that fraud?

You people and your anti-intellectualism...

Between Wilson and Lowi, you have probably the two best-known, most-respected, most mainstream American political scientists in history -- in addition to two past presidents of the American Political Science Association.

The only people who consider Wilson a "fraud" are crackpots and cranks.

Which, I guess, makes sense.

We've lived in different worlds, DC. I took my MPA and worked in the public sector where when people like my husband made a mistake and a kid he took the daily gamble on went out and killed someone, he went before the public on TV and explained that and was accountable at the next election time. Wilson's Big Theories about crime were totally wrong and led to huge over expenditures by states and the Federales in incarcerating people for extremely long times and in spending needless money on prisons. He was wrong and offered fraudulent bullshit about the rise in crime in the 1970s, which was about demographics--as the crime levels magically went down when the Baby Boomers had passed through the peak ages where young men commit crimes, basically late teens through age 25.

But, we as a nation were left with huge prison populations that both conservatives and liberals see the problem with, but with laws on the books that make it difficult to reduce them, even though crime is back to the level before Wilson started in cheerleading for incarceration. He was also totally and completely wrong about his based-on-nothing Broken Windows bullshit, which has been proven invalid and a huge mistake. Had he been a publicly elected official instead of an academic, he would have been elected out of office long ago and left with a shredded reputation.

And yes, I lack your adulation of bullshit academics. I lived with someone as intelligent as Wilson, who dedicated his life to making things better for the population that James Q. condemned to prisons in huge numbers. Who had a concealed carry permit, because those who actually deal with actual criminals get their lives threatened, even 15-20 years later. I worked for Michael Francke, who didn't get the accolades from a bunch of silly academics who write about a politics that they know nothing about, because he was murdered at age 42, gutted from chest to groin outside his office, for trying to clean up a corrupt prison system in Oregon.

I remember meeting Kelling, back in the early 80s, when people I worked with were questioning his theoretical nonsense. Because they, like my husband and Francke, were intelligent folks that went a different way from the Keyboard Warriors like yourself and silly academics like Wilson. However, times change and my guess is that Wilson's reputation among the made up discipline of political scientists will be repudiated as the nation tries to figure out how unravel the ridiculous prison building and lock 'em up strategies put in place by the Wilsonian disciples.

[seahawk]

I know that many prisons are operating over 100% capacity. I know that I live in a rural area and have several friends/acquaintances that work in the prison system. I know them to be neither too dumb or stupid, nor too ill educated to find other jobs. That is some complete elitist bullshit.

Elitist bullshit is the overbuilding of prisons to fund architects and a whole range of construction contractors and putting them in dying rural towns and using them as an employment program for the folks I mentioned. I sat next to the woman who answered to the Corrections Secretary and who was the liaison with legislators that needed to get someone's brother-in-law who couldn't find any other job, one somewhere in the Corrections system.

Elitist bullshit is making states choose between schools and universities and paying for the expensive prisons so that folks like your friends can remain in their dying small towns.

I haven't followed the Oregon prison system. Has it gotten less corrupt in the years since Kansan Michael Francke was murdered for trying to clean up the corruption?

If prisons are full are they being overbuilt?

Every school district in the county has passed bonds to provide upgrades and new facilities in the last 5 years. No one is choosing.

So you hate providing jobs for these people but you would gladly provide them with welfare checks?

You are a seriously sick puppy if you believe that people should be deprived of their liberty, have ridiculously long sentences, burden the taxpayers with the high costs of imprisonment so that some folks who live in dying small towns can keep their made up jobs. No, I think that many of those prisons should be closed and their jobs should go away. And I'm guessing that after this crisis, there will be some serious reassessment of the why's of keep someone past age 60 in prison because some Republican legislator pegged his re-election on making drastically long sentences and now we have this geriatric prison population. I mean, really, does even such as you imagine all those 55+ diabetic, COPD sufferers as armed robbers running down the street?

As for schools, I realize that you can only conceive of what benefits you personally and directly, so you talk about school construction, but there are other costs to schools. When I was working on how to reduce prison populations back in the 1980s, the experts predicted that states would have to make choices between schools and prisons and we've seen the choice as states have withdrawn support for universities and millennials have been hit with huge loans as a consequence. This crisis has shown us why we should continue to fund the scientific research in our universities and not the architects of prisons or the concrete contractors.

As for jobs, instead of prison jobs, I see no problem with providing subsidies to all kinds of infrastructure projects. We need infrastructure spending far more than more prison beds or money going into the pockets of the vile private prison contractors. As I recall from listening to economists, infrastructure spending is the quickest way to funnel funds out to job seekers.

[zsn]

So you hate providing jobs for these people but you would gladly provide them with welfare checks?

You are a seriously sick puppy if you believe that people should be deprived of their liberty, have ridiculously long sentences, burden the taxpayers with the high costs of imprisonment so that some folks who live in dying small towns can keep their made up jobs. No, I think that many of those prisons should be closed and their jobs should go away. And I'm guessing that after this crisis, there will be some serious reassessment of the why's of keep someone past age 60 in prison because some Republican legislator pegged his re-election on making drastically long sentences and now we have this geriatric prison population.
.
.
.
.
As for jobs, instead of prison jobs, I see no problem with providing subsidies to all kinds of infrastructure projects. We need infrastructure spending far more than more prison beds or money going into the pockets of the vile private prison contractors.

This is equivalent to the proverbial job creation program of giving some guy a bunch of rocks to hurl at windows and then have another guy come behind him and fix all these broken windows. Or we could give these two guys welfare checks!

Don't we have a lot of roads, bridges, high-speed rail, renewable energy and other projects which could actually stimulate economic growth?

[Deleted User 89]

this clip seems apt

[Deleted User 89]

Don't we have a lot of roads, bridges, high-speed rail, renewable energy and other projects which could actually stimulate economic growth?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilia ... tion_Corps

one can hope...

[TDub]

Elitist bullshit is the overbuilding of prisons to fund architects and a whole range of construction contractors and putting them in dying rural towns and using them as an employment program for the folks I mentioned. I sat next to the woman who answered to the Corrections Secretary and who was the liaison with legislators that needed to get someone's brother-in-law who couldn't find any other job, one somewhere in the Corrections system.

Elitist bullshit is making states choose between schools and universities and paying for the expensive prisons so that folks like your friends can remain in their dying small towns.

I haven't followed the Oregon prison system. Has it gotten less corrupt in the years since Kansan Michael Francke was murdered for trying to clean up the corruption?

If prisons are full are they being overbuilt?

Every school district in the county has passed bonds to provide upgrades and new facilities in the last 5 years. No one is choosing.

So you hate providing jobs for these people but you would gladly provide them with welfare checks?

You are a seriously sick puppy if you believe that people should be deprived of their liberty, have ridiculously long sentences, burden the taxpayers with the high costs of imprisonment so that some folks who live in dying small towns can keep their made up jobs. No, I think that many of those prisons should be closed and their jobs should go away. And I'm guessing that after this crisis, there will be some serious reassessment of the why's of keep someone past age 60 in prison because some Republican legislator pegged his re-election on making drastically long sentences and now we have this geriatric prison population. I mean, really, does even such as you imagine all those 55+ diabetic, COPD sufferers as armed robbers running down the street?

As for schools, I realize that you can only conceive of what benefits you personally and directly, so you talk about school construction, but there are other costs to schools. When I was working on how to reduce prison populations back in the 1980s, the experts predicted that states would have to make choices between schools and prisons and we've seen the choice as states have withdrawn support for universities and millennials have been hit with huge loans as a consequence. This crisis has shown us why we should continue to fund the scientific research in our universities and not the architects of prisons or the concrete contractors.

As for jobs, instead of prison jobs, I see no problem with providing subsidies to all kinds of infrastructure projects. We need infrastructure spending far more than more prison beds or money going into the pockets of the vile private prison contractors. As I recall from listening to economists, infrastructure spending is the quickest way to funnel funds out to job seekers.

Im sorry you dont like the current laws.l Im sorry that you hate small towns. Its quite clear that we have different life experiences in every aspect. Sorry you hate all of us dumbo bubbas in rural areas. We should probably just all try to be more like you.

[TDub]

Im not against infrastructure upgrades. There is not nearly as much infrastructure in rural America though so not sure how that helps job creation.


Wait, thats right. They should all strive to leave their small towns and be like all you big kids in the city. Everyone should bw forced to work in the city to survive and to be accepted by you as relevant non bubba individuals.

[Geezer]

TDub that migration has been going on for the 73 years that I have been alive. The towns that I grew up in are about 2/3 the size of when I lived there. My father left the farm for the City after the war.

[TDub]

TDub that migration has been going on for the 73 years that I have been alive. The towns that I grew up in are about 2/3 the size of when I lived there. My father left the farm for the City after the war.

True, and I understand the reasoning.
But that doesn't mean it ahould be required to have a job. I strongly dispute the fact that anyone that wants to work closer to home, or who prefers to stay in a small town is an uneducated, ignorant,dolt, bubba. That's just plainly false, elitist, and in itself ignorant.

[HouseDivided]

TDub that migration has been going on for the 73 years that I have been alive. The towns that I grew up in are about 2/3 the size of when I lived there. My father left the farm for the City after the war.

True, and I understand the reasoning.
But that doesn't mean it ahould be required to have a job. I strongly dispute the fact that anyone that wants to work closer to home, or who prefers to stay in a small town is an uneducated, ignorant,dolt, bubba. That's just plainly false, elitist, and in itself ignorant.

Exactly.

[seahawk]

TDub that migration has been going on for the 73 years that I have been alive. The towns that I grew up in are about 2/3 the size of when I lived there. My father left the farm for the City after the war.

True, and I understand the reasoning.
But that doesn't mean it ahould be required to have a job. I strongly dispute the fact that anyone that wants to work closer to home, or who prefers to stay in a small town is an uneducated, ignorant,dolt, bubba. That's just plainly false, elitist, and in itself ignorant.

No, elitist is insisting that taxpayers in big cities provide make work jobs for incompetent, stupid, ill-educated and sometimes just sadistic folks who are too lazy to train for or work at real jobs. And for the townsfolk who are too lazy to try and attract industries and instead lobby for a prison. The deck on my house was built by someone who lives in a small town, as was the electrical conduit to my irrigation pump, and the installation of the pump itself, and the plumber who repaired the pipes in my bathroom. The man who took down huge pine trees and the one who pressure washed the outside all live in small towns. None of them depend on publicly subsidized work that involves keeping people locked up for way longer than is necessary.

Elitist, ignorant is a desire to keep people locked up because it provides friends with jobs and allows someone to stay in a community subsidized by a prison. And try insulting someone else who hasn't worked around the correctional system for adults and juveniles and doesn't live in a small county with one dying town that managed to get a prison to prop it up while other small towns with mayors that are innovative have done wonders at attracting new industrial groups.

I'm not a "close all prisons" or "we should never imprison people" kind of person, but because of shameful and selfish attitudes like yours, the prison population got totally out of hand. But, you're undoubtedly proud that Oregon has among the oldest prison populations. Now, your state is looking at more taxpayer expense to rehab prisons into geriatric facilities because your friends deserve those jobs in rural dying towns.

Also, building roads and bridges and all kinds of other infrastructure projects--those don't all happen in big cities or require people to move to cities. $32 million to renovate the Oregon State Penitentiary minimum annex in Salem, and about $11 million per year to operate it as a geriatric facility.
I can think of plenty of other infrastructure projects that could put that money to a better use than housing old felons.

https://www.malheurenterprise.com/posts ... ly-inmates

[TDub]

So all rural people are bubba dumbfucks or just those that work at prisons?

[Shirley]

I was hoping for Tomi Lahren.

[seahawk]

So all rural people are bubba dumbfucks or just those that work at prisons?

What I hate is the attitude of people in small towns that there are those "others" who receive welfare and there are the upstanding, moral people like them who believe in High End Welfare via prison jobs and all the income that a prison brings into a community. And that some of those "others" deserve to be locked up forever so that the deserving small town people can have Very Expensive Welfare.

I worked with a small community that was on the edge of going out of business and then they lobbied for a high security women's prison, which I later visited. Now, the women lived in a halfway house situation next to a community college where they could take classes and near a city where they could eventually get work release jobs, but they were moved to this high security facility in the middle of nowhere, because people like you wanted the taxpayer subsidized High End Welfare for your community and your friends. That was in a different state than Oregon, but here's a little bit from Wikipedia about how a new women's prison was built in your state, with a much enlarged female population due to the change in laws. BTW, female offenders have much lower histories of violence than male offenders--but that doesn't matter to folks like you--it's only those jobs for your friends that count.

Here's a little bit about building a new, expensive women's prison in Oregon after the over incarceration cheerleading by DC's poli sci professor hero.

Oregon needed to build a new women's prison and prisoner intake facility due to the increased demand for prison space created with the passage of Ballot Measure 11 in 1994 that imposed mandatory minimum sentences for certain crimes.[4] The new prison was also designed to replace the 200-bed Oregon Women's Correctional Center in Salem.[5] Originally, the plan called for building the prison in Salem, but lawmakers and politicians there successfully pushed to build it elsewhere.[6] State officials planned on building the prison at the site of the closed Dammasch State Hospital in Wilsonville, but later selected a 108-acre (0.44 km2) site at the north end of Wilsonville in Washington County.[4] The process involved protracted battles over two legislative sessions and was settled when Oregon Governor John Kitzhaber signed a bill into law.[7]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coffee_Cr ... l_Facility

[TDub]

Can you dumb that down for me? I kant reed gud out hre in teh stikz

[Deleted User 89]

Im not against infrastructure upgrades. There is not nearly as much infrastructure in rural America though so not sure how that helps job creation.


Wait, thats right. They should all strive to leave their small towns and be like all you big kids in the city. Everyone should bw forced to work in the city to survive and to be accepted by you as relevant non bubba individuals.

who said they have to move? nothing wrong with working on the road to make a living

[ousdahl]

well, if rural America suddenly saw some boom in job creation, it wouldn't be rural for long.

"strive" to leave small towns is a weird way to put it, as is "forced to work in the city."

That's just where the economic opportunity is happening. If e.g. coal miners loose their jobs, it's not cuz some political rivals are trying to "take away their way of life," it's more likely just that the free market found favorable alternatives.

but I should admit - I'm only half paying attention to this convo and maybe missed something in the backs and forths and tldrs.

[Deleted User 289]

I was hoping for Tomi Lahren.

It's time for her to step on a used heroin needle.

[HouseDivided]

I was hoping for Tomi Lahren.

It's time for her to step on a used heroin needle.

KFC