Classics

[pdub]

Then it's pretty bad, almost trolling bad.

Player A: 20.9 PPG, 4.2 RPG, 5.2 APG, 2.4 TO/PG, 1.3 SPG, 49% FG, 47% 3FG, 79 FT%. NPOY. 1st team AA unanimous. B12POY. Big 12 All Defensive.

Player B: 16.6 PPG, 2.3 RPG, 4.8 APG, 3.5 TO/PG, 1.3 SPG, 47% FG, 38% 3FG, 72% FT. 3rd team AA on 2 teams. 1st team All Big 12.

[Cascadia]

I just don’t overvalue seniors and fat little engines that couldn’t

[jfish26]

Chalmers 08 season was better than Tyshawn's 12 ( entire season ).
Same with Devon's season.
Same with Sherron's 09 season.
Certainly same with Vonte's 2018 season.

Nah. Each of my t-2 guys made an AA team. Mario didn't.

Was he good enough to? Sure. But he never individually had a year that was as good as the best season for the t-2 guys.

[jfish26]

I just don’t overvalue seniors and fat little engines that couldn’t

To be clear, Sherron does better in the "peak" analysis than he does the "career" analysis. Only Frank had a better peak than Sherron's junior season.

[pdub]

Statically Chalmers 08 season was better than Ty's.
You are looking simply at PPG.
And then not factoring in 1st team All B12 defense ( nor him hitting the biggest shot in Kansas BB history ).

Chalmers being on a stacked team was not unlike both Dok and Dot not making a 1st team this season.

I think you used win shares in the past as well as a metric for comparison.
08 Chalmers > Ty 12 in win shares.

[jfish26]

Statically Chalmers 08 season was better than Ty's.
You are looking simply at PPG.
And then not factoring in 1st team All B12 defense.

Chalmers being on a stacked team was not unlike both Dok and Dot not making a 1st team this season.

I think you used win shares in the past as well as a metric for comparison.
08 Chalmers > Ty 12 in win shares.

Ty gets lots of extra credit for just how much was on his shoulders that season. I have no doubt Chalmers could have done it, if he'd been in that position. But he wasn't, so he didn't.

[pdub]

I just don’t overvalue seniors and fat little engines that couldn’t

To be clear, Sherron does better in the "peak" analysis than he does the "career" analysis. Only Frank had a better peak than Sherron's junior season.

Well that's not right either.

Player A:
18.9 PPG, 2.9 RPG, 5 APG, 3.3 TO/PG, 1.1 SPG, 43% FG, 38% 3FG.

Player B:
17.3 PPG, 4 RPG, 7.2 APG, 2.8 TO/PG, 1.6 SPG, 46% FG, 41% 3FG.

[Cascadia]

I just don’t overvalue seniors and fat little engines that couldn’t

To be clear, Sherron does better in the "peak" analysis than he does the "career" analysis. Only Frank had a better peak than Sherron's junior season.

I completely disagree. I remember calling my brother after the Michigan State game and telling him it was time for Sherron to go. I didn’t give a fuck where he went, just gtfo.

You can always shape stats to fit whatever argument you are making but you’re never comparing apples to apples. Different roles, different teams, different styles, different eras, different teammates, different schedules etc.

Sherron is, was and always will be a short, fat little shit with an awful attitude. No thanks on leading a team.

[CrimsonNBlue]

You can always shape stats to fit whatever argument you are making but you’re never comparing apples to apples. Different roles, different teams, different styles, different eras, different teammates, different schedules etc.

^^^^^
Even awards work that way.

[Cascadia]

You can always shape stats to fit whatever argument you are making but you’re never comparing apples to apples. Different roles, different teams, different styles, different eras, different teammates, different schedules etc.

^^^^^
Even awards work that way.

Yup. Frank Mason is a better basketball player than Magic Johnson.

Because, Naismith Award!!!!!

And just think about how badly TJ Ford would school Magic! Or Jimmer!

[CrimsonNBlue]

You can always shape stats to fit whatever argument you are making but you’re never comparing apples to apples. Different roles, different teams, different styles, different eras, different teammates, different schedules etc.

^^^^^
Even awards work that way.

Yup. Frank Mason is a better basketball player than Magic Johnson.

Because, Naismith Award!!!!!

And just think about how badly TJ Ford would school Magic! Or Jimmer!

Well, we're going down a road that I have no desire to rehash again, and I don't see how anyone could leave Frank Mason out of Bill Self's top 5 players all time.

But, to your point, the 2nd and 3rd place vote getters in 2017 for the Naismith were Caleb Swanigan and Lonzo Ball. Especially when you compare to a player in the 80's/90's, it's just different.

[pdub]

You don't really have to 'shape' stats.
Stuff like win shares or PER or defensive metrics, sure.

So you use stats and awards in these arguments over subjective eye tests where someone thinks Sherron Collins is fat so he sucks.

[jfish26]

^^^^^
Even awards work that way.

Yup. Frank Mason is a better basketball player than Magic Johnson.

Because, Naismith Award!!!!!

And just think about how badly TJ Ford would school Magic! Or Jimmer!

Well, we're going down a road that I have no desire to rehash again, and I don't see how anyone could leave Frank Mason out of Bill Self's top 5 players all time.

But, to your point, the 2nd and 3rd place vote getters in 2017 for the Naismith were Caleb Swanigan and Lonzo Ball. Especially when you compare to a player in the 80's/90's, it's just different.

I don't know - as we know, Bill's time here started at the very beginning of the one-and-done era. I think that period of time is stable enough where there's just not a reasonable argument for anyone but Frank.

[Geezer]

I just don’t overvalue seniors and fat little engines that couldn’t

To be clear, Sherron does better in the "peak" analysis than he does the "career" analysis. Only Frank had a better peak than Sherron's junior season.

I completely disagree. I remember calling my brother after the Michigan State game and telling him it was time for Sherron to go. I didn’t give a fuck where he went, just gtfo.

You can always shape stats to fit whatever argument you are making but you’re never comparing apples to apples. Different roles, different teams, different styles, different eras, different teammates, different schedules etc.

Sherron is, was and always will be a short, fat little shit with an awful attitude. No thanks on leading a team.

Somebody has more jewelry than the others.

[CrimsonNBlue]

Yup. Frank Mason is a better basketball player than Magic Johnson.

Because, Naismith Award!!!!!

And just think about how badly TJ Ford would school Magic! Or Jimmer!

Well, we're going down a road that I have no desire to rehash again, and I don't see how anyone could leave Frank Mason out of Bill Self's top 5 players all time.

But, to your point, the 2nd and 3rd place vote getters in 2017 for the Naismith were Caleb Swanigan and Lonzo Ball. Especially when you compare to a player in the 80's/90's, it's just different.

I don't know - as we know, Bill's time here started at the very beginning of the one-and-done era. I think that period of time is stable enough where there's just not a reasonable argument for anyone but Frank.

If Frank plays in the same season as Zion Williamon, Anthony Davis, Jalen Brunson, he finishes 2nd in voting, just like Devonte'. Even Sherron did pretty well in NPOY voting. That's where what looks like an objective measure just is not completely.

Stats, awards, Final Fours, Championships, whatever, a handful of guys were fantastic. Make a list, and it's probably fine--so long as Naadir is last.

[ousdahl]

If only Sherron spent as much time training as he did eating threads on the satellite bored.

[CrimsonNBlue]

If only Sherron spent as much time training as he did eating threads on the satellite bored.

If we want to get into the completely subjective, on a talent scale, Sherron's probably at the top. Baller.

We got 100% out of what Frank could offer and become. Sherron, not even close.

[jfish26]

Well, we're going down a road that I have no desire to rehash again, and I don't see how anyone could leave Frank Mason out of Bill Self's top 5 players all time.

But, to your point, the 2nd and 3rd place vote getters in 2017 for the Naismith were Caleb Swanigan and Lonzo Ball. Especially when you compare to a player in the 80's/90's, it's just different.

I don't know - as we know, Bill's time here started at the very beginning of the one-and-done era. I think that period of time is stable enough where there's just not a reasonable argument for anyone but Frank.

If Frank plays in the same season as Zion Williamon, Anthony Davis, Jalen Brunson, he finishes 2nd in voting, just like Devonte'. Even Sherron did pretty well in NPOY voting. That's where what looks like an objective measure just is not completely.

Stats, awards, Final Fours, Championships, whatever, a handful of guys were fantastic. Make a list, and it's probably fine--so long as Naadir is last.

I just don't see it this way. He won the damn things, pretty much all of them. For that particular season of college basketball, he was the dude. That carries a lot of weight with me.

[NDballer13]

I don't know - as we know, Bill's time here started at the very beginning of the one-and-done era. I think that period of time is stable enough where there's just not a reasonable argument for anyone but Frank.

If Frank plays in the same season as Zion Williamon, Anthony Davis, Jalen Brunson, he finishes 2nd in voting, just like Devonte'. Even Sherron did pretty well in NPOY voting. That's where what looks like an objective measure just is not completely.

Stats, awards, Final Fours, Championships, whatever, a handful of guys were fantastic. Make a list, and it's probably fine--so long as Naadir is last.

I just don't see it this way. He won the damn things, pretty much all of them. For that particular season of college basketball, he was the dude. That carries a lot of weight with me.

I think that's the point CnB is making. For that year, yes. Over the course of 18 years, no.

[pdub]

No, Frank Mason isn't the best college basketball player in 18 years.
But he's the best guard that Bill Self has had at Kansas.
And awards and stats are a factor when trying to decide why.