CrimsonNBlue wrote: ↑Mon Apr 20, 2020 1:36 am
Mike was a lot better college player than what you’d think given the usual narrative around it.
But, frickin’ Roi always has to be the guy that knew it all along.
Most amazing thing to me is that MJ was allegedly one of the best HS players in the country and I didn't know he existed until he went to UNC.
We got Roi being dramatic about MJ because we don't get to hear Dean talk about him.
CrimsonNBlue wrote: ↑Mon Apr 20, 2020 1:40 am
The doc itself brings back a lot of good memories. Great refresher on the drama and you knew Krause would not come off well in it.
It’s interesting that Kerr and Paxson were about the only guys to say something nice about Krause, but neither of them could talk about him without mentioning the bad.
I also like reading current NBA players’ reactions on Twitter. Seems they don’t see anything like this/MJ.
Krause was one of most hated men in Chicago sports history and yet without him there is a decent chance Chicago has 6 less Championships. It's interesting to get different perspectives on Krause and Reinsdorf from different people. Just this morning I was reading comments from a former KU player and his friends. Let's just say there was a little "anti-semitism". Not from the former KU player but his "friends". Then I read stuff from those who know/knew both Jerrys well.
On another note, I'm a bit surprised that so far Pippen is coming off as a villain.
Consensus in Chicago was he was an asshole for a long time in the 90s. I've shared my stories in the past so I'll spare everyone now.
Only thing I will say is that I find it amazing the guy pulled the bullshit move in 95/96, pulled the bullshit move in in the 94 playoffs where he refused to play because a play was called for Kukoc and not him (see video below), pulled the bullshit move when he implied Bulls fans are racist (https://www.upi.com/Archives/1994/03/02 ... 762584400/), and pulled all the bullshit moves off the court, and yet the majority of Bulls fans brushed all that aside and still LOVED him.
CrimsonNBlue wrote: ↑Mon Apr 20, 2020 1:40 am
The doc itself brings back a lot of good memories. Great refresher on the drama and you knew Krause would not come off well in it.
It’s interesting that Kerr and Paxson were about the only guys to say something nice about Krause, but neither of them could talk about him without mentioning the bad.
I also like reading current NBA players’ reactions on Twitter. Seems they don’t see anything like this/MJ.
Krause was one of most hated men in Chicago sports history and yet without him there is a decent chance Chicago has 6 less Championships. It's interesting to get different perspectives on Krause and Reinsdorf from different people. Just this morning I was reading comments from a former KU player and his friends. Let's just say there was a little "anti-semitism". Not from the former KU player but his "friends". Then I read stuff from those who know/knew both Jerrys well.
On another note, I'm a bit surprised that so far Pippen is coming off as a villain.
Consensus in Chicago was he was an asshole for a long time in the 90s. I've shared my stories in the past so I'll spare everyone now.
Only thing I will say is that I find it amazing the guy pulled the bullshit move in 95/96, pulled the bullshit move in in the 94 playoffs where he refused to play because a play was called for Kukoc and not him (see video below), pulled the bullshit move when he implied Bulls fans are racist (https://www.upi.com/Archives/1994/03/02 ... 762584400/), and pulled all the bullshit moves off the court, and yet the majority of Bulls fans brushed all that aside and still LOVED him.
I don't feel he was coming off as a villain. But then again like you said, Scottie was never a super likable guy while he played. He has become more likable after his career has ended and seems like a mellow dude. Sitting down when Kukoc hit that shot has to be a big part of this coming up.
Sorry for the repost, but I couldn't find the old thread I made a few years back. It must have been on .Net.
Anyways, for those that didn't see, didn't know, didn't care, but maybe now are interested because of the documentary, here are some pics from when the 97-98 team visited Allen Field House. As the show said last night when talking about the exhibition season, Pippen and Rodman weren't there, and I can remember standing in line wondering if the team would even be together but at the time you just felt there was no way they were going to break the champs up as they were going for another 3-Peat. Stood in line 8.5 hours out in front of AFH and was able to snag some tickets.
I also didn't think Scottie came off as a villain, but perhaps my own bias is blinding me. I've read a lot of sympathetic takes towards Scottie given his contract situation. It seemed that most on the doc thought Scottie was in the wrong, but they understood where the anger was coming from. Plus, everyone was against Krause, anyway.
Scottie was a little unlucky. It's well documented why he went for the long, but unfavorable contract. What was a little out of his and his agents' control, though, was how much the NBA changed between 1991 and 1997.
Next ep is Rodman. I would expect Rodman would be one where the MJ dirt really starts to come in as they were not close, but it sounds like Rodman looks back on it like a business relationship. Will be fun to see how the Bulls accepted the enemy joining the team.
Somewhat quick Danny Manning / Ron Harper story - but I think it's a good one.
Clippers were staying at the Westin in Chicago. I went to the hotel to meet Danny. He, I, and some friends were going out. We meet him in the lobby and he's with Elgin Baylor and Ron Harper.
Ron is wearing a purple suit with a peace medallion hanging from his neck. Danny tells Ron we're going out and asks him if he would like to join us. Ron says, "Nah, my stomach is bothering me". Danny says, "You don't have to eat and you can still come out". Ron says he's going to kick back at the hotel and get a massage. Danny asks, "A stomach massage"? Ron says, "Nah, my fellow". We all bust up laughing.
LVCHawk wrote: ↑Mon Apr 20, 2020 8:53 am
Sorry for the repost, but I couldn't find the old thread I made a few years back. It must have been on .Net.
Anyways, for those that didn't see, didn't know, didn't care, but maybe now are interested because of the documentary, here are some pics from when the 97-98 team visited Allen Field House. As the show said last night when talking about the exhibition season, Pippen and Rodman weren't there, and I can remember standing in line wondering if the team would even be together but at the time you just felt there was no way they were going to break the champs up as they were going for another 3-Peat. Stood in line 8.5 hours out in front of AFH and was able to snag some tickets.
I probably posted on .Net, but I was also there. I remember that in the days leading up there was talk about Michael not making it to the game. It was something like the day before where it was confirmed he'd be there. I still haven't been to a place with that many camera flashes.
The game was also a pretty short time after Shawn Kemp was traded for Vin Baker. That was a bummer. If my memory is right, the Glove was there.
CrimsonNBlue wrote: ↑Mon Apr 20, 2020 9:29 am
I also didn't think Scottie came off as a villain, but perhaps my own bias is blinding me. I've read a lot of sympathetic takes towards Scottie given his contract situation. It seemed that most on the doc thought Scottie was in the wrong, but they understood where the anger was coming from. Plus, everyone was against Krause, anyway.
Scottie was a little unlucky. It's well documented why he went for the long, but unfavorable contract. What was a little out of his and his agents' control, though, was how much the NBA changed between 1991 and 1997.
Next ep is Rodman. I would expect Rodman would be one where the MJ dirt really starts to come in as they were not close, but it sounds like Rodman looks back on it like a business relationship. Will be fun to see how the Bulls accepted the enemy joining the team.
No matter how you slice it, Scottie was in the wrong and he was rightfully called out for it.
Forgetting the documentary, Krause without question was the main villain. Not do defend him but right or wrong, the man was doing what he was paid to do. I feel Reinsdorf deserved plenty of blame too.
You are 100% right about how much the NBA changed between 91 and 97 and I laugh because I am close with the guy who pretty much set the ball rolling in that regard.
Rodman is Rodman. Don't know how else to describe him. Would often see him at the Crazy Horse (strip club) and by far my highlight with him was when he brought Carmen Electra with him.
re: Scottie, I just don't get how neither he nor apparently his agent had any perception of their market value.
And the logic of "wanted to secure a long term deal to take care of the folks in his corner" is really supposed to apply, they didn't have the business sense to negotiate the best deal possible for his corner? They just took the K with big numbers on the length end of it, without considering the numbers that matters on the dollar end of it?
But I guess more than anything it's just a testament to how much pro contracts changed, even from the early 90s to the late 90s.
re: Kraus, yeah he comes across as such an antagonist in this. Like they never show him smiling or being agreeable or anything. He's portrayed as this short, fat, petty little man who wears this perpetual shady frown, who is constantly getting picked on, and who has some Napoleon complex going on, running around telling everyone to give him credit too? (They might have said this, but) what was his redeeming worth? If everybody hated him then why'd they keep him around so long?
I definitely got this vibe from Reinsdorf on the doc that he wants everyone to think that Krause couldn't get out of his own way and fought with everyone, while Reinsdorf was just the owner who sat back and only wanted to win basketball games. That's not how I remembered it. Always thought Reinsdorf was villain 1b at that time.
You can't understate how odd of a pairing Rodman and Electra were.
CrimsonNBlue wrote: ↑Mon Apr 20, 2020 1:36 am
Mike was a lot better college player than what you’d think given the usual narrative around it.
But, frickin’ Roi always has to be the guy that knew it all along.
Most amazing thing to me is that MJ was allegedly one of the best HS players in the country and I didn't know he existed until he went to UNC.
We got Roi being dramatic about MJ because we don't get to hear Dean talk about him.
Even in that interview, which was almost 40 years later, I still read some self-patting on the back by Roi.
I enjoyed this clip from the doc by Bob Knight as it was when Michael wasn't Michael yet. And, that is not a man that passed out praise. I'm no fan of Knight, but he was obviously a pretty big deal at the time.
CrimsonNBlue wrote: ↑Mon Apr 20, 2020 9:29 am
I also didn't think Scottie came off as a villain, but perhaps my own bias is blinding me. I've read a lot of sympathetic takes towards Scottie given his contract situation. It seemed that most on the doc thought Scottie was in the wrong, but they understood where the anger was coming from. Plus, everyone was against Krause, anyway.
No matter how you slice it, Scottie was in the wrong and he was rightfully called out for it.
Forgetting the documentary, Krause without question was the main villain. Not do defend him but right or wrong, the man was doing what he was paid to do. I feel Reinsdorf deserved plenty of blame too.
He was in a sense, but he also realistically lucked into having a team of the ages by having the best player who was openly called the best player of all time during broadcasts, not just in hindsight. So he had the best team, the best player who was still playing at an MVP level, and the dork broke it up. Granted, I know he helped build it but his job was to build a team to win championships and he had a championship team and let his ego get in the way of keeping it going.
He did the opposite of what the Patriots did with Brady. For years now we've heard they might go separate ways, but Brady kept winning and they'd resign him and try to keep it together. Then once he finally didn't win, they let him go. Cold blooded, but Belichick at least wasn't stupid enough to dismantle a team that was still winning titles.
CrimsonNBlue wrote: ↑Mon Apr 20, 2020 9:52 am
I definitely got this vibe from Reinsdorf on the doc that he wants everyone to think that Krause couldn't get out of his own way and fought with everyone, while Reinsdorf was just the owner who sat back and only wanted to win basketball games. That's not how I remembered it. Always thought Reinsdorf was villain 1b at that time.
Yep, the Jerry's. There was nothing good said about either one back then, although it was public knowledge they all hated Krause. I'd totally forgotten they used to call him "crumbs", lol. Imagine Mahomes or someone mocking Veach in a few years. You could get away with some of that back then because the internet was just starting to take off and no social media, but I'm assuming back then if you weren't a Bulls fan you didn't keep up with how much they disliked the front office and how open it was.
We all have to remember that is project was Jordan backed and approved so of course Krause is going to come off as the guy who blew up a good thing. Krause's ego got the best of him at the end of the era but at least through two episodes Reinsdorf is throwing him right under the bus when he is the owner. He could have easily stepped in and said enough is enough lets pay these guys and run it till the wheels fall off but he was more against re-negotiations than Krause was.
I get the feeling that since Krause isn't alive to defend himself Reinsdorf wants his lasting legacy to be the owner who did his best to keep the group together but if there is someone to blame it is Krause. Maybe they will touch on it later but Mike at the time was none to pleased with Reinsdorf and Krause.
ousdahl wrote: ↑Mon Apr 20, 2020 9:49 am If everybody hated him then why'd they keep him around so long?
Granted, at the time, I was too young to care about contracts and team makeup, but I feel like I recall him being tolerated early on and the loathing came in the mid 90's. They touched on it a little, but he made some good moves.
Grant and Pippen, obviously. Then, he was right in bringing in Harp and Rodman. He was even semi-right on his love affair w/ Kukoc. The Jordan Rules book does a pretty good job outlining Krause's moves and how some worked, but it's like he'd be obsessed with finding his guys and not budging.
CrimsonNBlue wrote: ↑Mon Apr 20, 2020 9:52 am
I definitely got this vibe from Reinsdorf on the doc that he wants everyone to think that Krause couldn't get out of his own way and fought with everyone, while Reinsdorf was just the owner who sat back and only wanted to win basketball games. That's not how I remembered it. Always thought Reinsdorf was villain 1b at that time.
Yep, the Jerry's. There was nothing good said about either one back then, although it was public knowledge they all hated Krause. I'd totally forgotten they used to call him "crumbs", lol. Imagine Mahomes or someone mocking Veach in a few years. You could get away with some of that back then because the internet was just starting to take off and no social media, but I'm assuming back then if you weren't a Bulls fan you didn't keep up with how much they disliked the front office and how open it was.
There would be an MJ VHS tape released almost every summer, and I remember the Jerrys being villains in those. Crumbs is hilarious, I also think that came out in Sam Smith's books.
I was hoping someone would mention Mahomes. As I was watching last night and seeing the elation on Chicagoans faces and the soon-to-be famous title for Barack Obama as "former Chicago resident," I couldn't help but think there is a real possibility that Mahomes and Kansas City has a similar doc. It's a smaller scale, for sure, but feels similar.
Also didn't know he groomed Floyd before the Bulls even broke up. I guess I kind of just figured he had a list of guys he wanted to eventually replace Jackson and he liked Floyd, but to bring him around the team while Jackson is still the coach? That is nuts.
CrimsonNBlue wrote: ↑Mon Apr 20, 2020 10:16 am
I was hoping someone would mention Mahomes. As I was watching last night and seeing the elation on Chicagoans faces and the soon-to-be famous title for Barack Obama as "former Chicago resident," I couldn't help but think there is a real possibility that Mahomes and Kansas City has a similar doc. It's a smaller scale, for sure, but feels similar.
Yep, I texted my buddy during a commercial break saying the way they were talking about Jordan is how we (Kansas City) talk about Mahomes. "The kid does things nobody has see....He's unbelievable", all that good stuff. Not to make this another Mahomes thread, but in major team sports, Brady was the only one I've seen since Jordan that reminded me of Jordan as far as being clutch. You could probably throw Kobe in there too. Maybe in 15 years we'll be looking at Mahomes the same way as Jordan, although probably more likable.
Either way, when they hit the intro music at the end of the first episode I'm pretty sure I could have ran through a wall. One last chance at being a teenager for the next 4 weeks.
