Who is the GOAT

[ousdahl]

What if MJ had to play with Drew Gooden and Mo Williams as his best players for the first 7 years of his career?

You’re right, MJ shoulda bounced to go play with the pistons.

Then bounced back to the bulls.

Then bounced to the lakers, just cuz.

[CrimsonNBlue]

Ugh.

That’s as big an argument as any against Lebron.

Is there any other goat candidate with that vision for the league, and for his career - instead of proving his goat by besting his rivals, he’d rather team up to play buddy ball with them?

Participation trophies all around!

Kevin Durant. Kobe was ready to leave LA if they didn't get Pau.

Rings can't be a factor in a goat debate if you're going to fault a guy for wanting better teammates.

I'm to the point where I don't think jumping teams should automatically count against LeBron in a best players debate. But, it does count against him in the "LeBron James was a lame superstar" debate. Which, he mostly has been.

[ousdahl]

Most goat candidate mindsets seem to want to prove they’re better than the other candidates.

Lebron’s mindset is apparently to team up with the other candidates.

[ousdahl]

I would have much more respect than Lebron if he came out and said something like, MJ is obviously among the goats, but if we were both matched up in our prime, I think I could take him.

But alas!

[CrimsonNBlue]

Most goat candidate mindsets seem to want to prove they’re better than the other candidates.

Lebron’s mindset is apparently to team up with the other candidates.

I think Garnett and Allen gave LeBron the self validation he was looking for to leave. Before then stars wanted to carve their own paths. And, people didn't like playing with LeBron then. He's a MUCH better player and teammate now.

Celts gave LeBron the green light in his head and he had his bestie Wade and a miserable Bosh that were easy to convince. MJ would have stayed and won in Cleveland, which makes him more likable, but given the era, perhaps shouldn't count against LeBron's accomplishments.

[pdub]

MJ got fortunate that his team sucked hard enough to have the no. 8 pick in 1987, which gave them leverage ( and good on the Bulls organization for making a great move - one that never happened with the Cavs management ) to get Scottie with no. 5.

Cleveland never came close to drafting a guy of Scottie's caliber ( or hell, even Horace Grant's caliber ) in LeBron's first years with them.

Say the Scottie trade was denied - think the Bulls are three-peating with Olden Polynice?

[Deleted User 310]

DWade was not a top 5 player in the league when Lebron went there imo...and the culture is different now. Players have a lot more say/control of who they play with and where they go... and we don't bash The Truth for wanting Ray Allen and KG to join up with him. They might be who started the movement of super teams.

Also, Pippen might have been a top 5ish player for some of the years he was with MJ...MJ didn't need to jump teams because his teams were fucking good once they started winning. Lebrons early Cleveland teams were winning inspite of how crappy most of the players around him were.

All that said, MJ is different. No he absolutely would have never done a KD type move and jump to a team that's already won championships...but lebron also never did that. Wade had won a championship, but that Miami team he jumped too was nothing like the pistons that were eliminating Jordan or the Warriors that eliminated KD.

[ousdahl]

Well, he has “nice” right there in his name, so it sounds like someone BronnyBron would wanna team up with...

[TDub]

Most goat candidate mindsets seem to want to prove they’re better than the other candidates.

Lebron’s mindset is apparently to team up with the other candidates.

Yes, and no matter the era that is considered a strike against him.

But, but, but Dennis Rodman!! Perhaps pdubs lamest argument yet.

[ousdahl]

Well, he has “nice” right there in his name, so it sounds like someone BronnyBron would wanna team up with...

Dangit I meant to delete this but think I reported it instead LOL you can go ahead and ban me

[pdub]

ousdahl is reporting to take down his own puns.

[TDub]

DWade was not a top 5 player in the league when Lebron went there imo...and the culture is different now. Players have a lot more say/control of who they play with and where they go... and we don't bash The Truth for wanting Ray Allen and KG to join up with him. They might be who started the movement of super teams.

Also, Pippen might have been a top 5ish player for some of the years he was with MJ...MJ didn't need to jump teams because his teams were fucking good once they started winning. Lebrons early Cleveland teams were winning inspite of how crappy most of the players around him were.

All that said, MJ is different. No he absolutely would have never done a KD type move and jump to a team that's already won championships...but lebron also never did that. Wade had won a championship, but that Miami team he jumped too was nothing like the pistons that were eliminating Jordan or the Warriors that eliminated KD.

Truth, garnett and allen are never considered in the goat argument. The fact that they teamed up doesn't impact their status. I still think its dumb that this has become the trend.

[CrimsonNBlue]

DWade was not a top 5 player in the league when Lebron went there imo...and the culture is different now. Players have a lot more say/control of who they play with and where they go... and we don't bash The Truth for wanting Ray Allen and KG to join up with him. They might be who started the movement of super teams.

Also, Pippen might have been a top 5ish player for some of the years he was with MJ...MJ didn't need to jump teams because his teams were fucking good once they started winning. Lebrons early Cleveland teams were winning inspite of how crappy most of the players around him were.

All that said, MJ is different. No he absolutely would have never done a KD type move and jump to a team that's already won championships...but lebron also never did that. Wade had won a championship, but that Miami team he jumped too was nothing like the pistons that were eliminating Jordan or the Warriors that eliminated KD.

Dwyane Wade was first team All-NBA in each of the 2 seassons before LeBron joined the Heat. So, pretty good argument for Top 5. Bosh had a 3rd Team and multiple All Star selections to that point, but ended up being huge for that group.


On a smaller scale of team jumping, Shaq going to LA, but Kobe wasn't definitely going to be Kobe at that time. The Heat also got a fucking haul for Shaq.

Celtics was not about Truth as it was about Ainge. And Garnett--he was the, uh, Big Ticket in the whole thing. I know you don't like to hear it, but LeBron has had way more GM power than almost everyone, and certainly Paul Pierce.

[Deleted User 310]

DWade was not a top 5 player in the league when Lebron went there imo...and the culture is different now. Players have a lot more say/control of who they play with and where they go... and we don't bash The Truth for wanting Ray Allen and KG to join up with him. They might be who started the movement of super teams.

Also, Pippen might have been a top 5ish player for some of the years he was with MJ...MJ didn't need to jump teams because his teams were fucking good once they started winning. Lebrons early Cleveland teams were winning inspite of how crappy most of the players around him were.

All that said, MJ is different. No he absolutely would have never done a KD type move and jump to a team that's already won championships...but lebron also never did that. Wade had won a championship, but that Miami team he jumped too was nothing like the pistons that were eliminating Jordan or the Warriors that eliminated KD.

Celtics was not about Truth as it was about Ainge. And Garnett--he was the, uh, Big Ticket in the whole thing. I know you don't like to hear it, but LeBron has had way more GM power than almost everyone, and certainly Paul Pierce.

No doubt he had more power than PP. But they set the stage for the new trend. And they sort of became lebrons "pistons" iirc....although like has been pointed out, he had to leave to overcome them because Cleveland wasn't going to organically put a team together capable of beating them until those guys aged out of dominance.

Side note: those Celtics teams were some of my favorite teams ever. I loved watching them and their dynamic together. Its kind of sad that Ray Allen has bad blood with them...but man was it fun watching them when they were together. KG was so fun to watch. PP was so clutch.

[ousdahl]

ousdahl is reporting to take down his own puns.

For you to not ban me over this is, in itself, nice on so many levels.

I think the term for “nice on so many levels” is Polynice?

[CrimsonNBlue]

That's my favorite era of NBA since 1998. Last time that there was real bad blood between players/teams.

Too much butt buddy shit with LeBron, Curry, CP3, AD etc.

[ousdahl]

^^^^

Those Lebron/Pierce duels were badass.

[pdub]

There was that game 7 Bron v Truth where both dudes scored 40+ points.

Of course, Cleveland had Delonte West, Wally Szcerbiak and 100 year old Ben Wallace starting with LeBron and the Truth had Kevin Garnett, Ray Allen and Rajon Rondo.

[ousdahl]

Good point!

Guess that’s an argument Lebron shoulda just taken his talents to Boston?

[NDballer13]

Cavs management blew it for the beginning of LeBron's career...but LeBron was good enough to keep the Cavs out of the lotto ( by his 2nd year - they almost had Andre Iguodala which would have changed things )...so they never had a chance for a guy like Pippen.

Pippen was drafted by Seattle, then traded to the Bulls that night. Cavs could have done that with a top 5 pick if they were serious about building a title team around LeBron.