Who is the GOAT

[Deleted User 310]

I'm torn. I feel it's not a great excuse for excluding him from his top 5 list but it also is a valid reason to include those he did in his top 5 list.

How can he have Magic AND Kareem then? Only 1 built it from the ground up.

[Deleted User 289]

All depends on how he defines it. I'm not Paul Pierce.
Kareem's 1st 4 seasons on the Lakers he won a grand total of 2 playoff series.
Magic comes and his rookie season they win the championship. If I'm not mistaken he's the only rookie to win a Finals MVP.

[Geezer]

Kareem and Oscar won a title in Milwaukee

[Deleted User 310]

By the criteria used by PP he'd have to rank Bill Russell #1 and it shouldn't even be close.

[Geezer]

How about K.C. or Sam Jones?

[Deleted User 310]

Doc is obviously not saying lebron is better than MJ, but it is interesting to hear someone who knows basketball as much as Doc weigh in.

[Deleted User 310]

[Cascadia]

Doc is obviously not saying lebron is better than MJ, but it is interesting to hear someone who knows basketball as much as Doc weigh in.

Yeah, Pierce doesn’t know basketball

[Deleted User 310]

I never said Pierce doesn't know basketball. That video has nothing to do with Pierce or what he said.

I think Pierce absolutely knows basketball, but he's not always the best at being objective. He isn't the biggest fan or lebron (although neither is Doc). Pierce also once said he has a better career than Dwayne Wade and Jalen and Beedle clowned him for it.

I love Paul Pierce. But sometimes I think he says things he doesn't believe (or if he does truly believe them then they don't make much sense to me) because his job it to entertain while talking about basketball.

[Deleted User 310]

[Deleted User 289]

Doc is obviously not saying lebron is better than MJ, but it is interesting to hear someone who knows basketball as much as Doc weigh in.

Speaking of top 5s and Doc Rivers, am I the only one who feels he's one of the top 5 most overrated coaches of all time?

[Geezer]

He's been cashing dem checks for a long time.

[NDballer13]

All depends on how he defines it. I'm not Paul Pierce.
Kareem's 1st 4 seasons on the Lakers he won a grand total of 2 playoff series.
Magic comes and his rookie season they win the championship. If I'm not mistaken he's the only rookie to win a Finals MVP.

MJ's first 3 seasons the Bulls won a grand total of 0 playoff series.
Scottie comes and....

....nevermind.

[Deleted User 310]

Doc is obviously not saying lebron is better than MJ, but it is interesting to hear someone who knows basketball as much as Doc weigh in.

Speaking of top 5s and Doc Rivers, am I the only one who feels he's one of the top 5 most overrated coaches of all time?

I don't know. I'd have to see others on the list to determine. I think Doc is a good coach.

The coach I would have on that list currently is Brad Stevens.

[Deleted User 289]

All depends on how he defines it. I'm not Paul Pierce.
Kareem's 1st 4 seasons on the Lakers he won a grand total of 2 playoff series.
Magic comes and his rookie season they win the championship. If I'm not mistaken he's the only rookie to win a Finals MVP.

MJ's first 3 seasons the Bulls won a grand total of 0 playoff series.
Scottie comes and....

....nevermind.

Clearly you're not comprehending the purpose of my post.
Illini posted - "How can he have Magic AND Kareem then? Only 1 built it from the ground up".
A) I said I am not Paul Pierce. Paul Pierce (and his reasoning) was the subject of our discussion.
B) I was trying to relay the thought that I had a difficult time understanding why Pierce would say Kareem built the Lakers from the ground up when he (and the Lakers) only won two playoff series in his first 4 years on the team.
C) You are of course correct that Jordan won ZERO playoff series in his first 3 seasons. I completely agree with you and/or anyone/everyone else who might/would say Michael needed Scottie to win championships. It's a fact. And?
D) I am someone who puts LeBron in his top 5. I don't agree with Pierce's logic for his top 5 when as Illini (and you) have pointed out that his logic is flawed. I am someone who gives LeBron all the credit in the world for his accomplishments and what he has achieved. I am someone who when people point out LeBron's record in the Finals says, at least he got to the Finals (8 consecutive times) - It's not his fault his team/s lost in the Finals - and for me, the 2015 Finals was the greatest individual Finals performance I have ever seen. That includes any of the spectacular Finals appearances that Jordan had.

So you (or anyone else) can go on and on and on and on trying to tell me but but but LeBron LeBron LeBron and I'm not ever going to say your opinion on his greatness is flawed. I'm not arguing with you (or anyone else) regarding his greatness.
I happen to feel Jordan was the best player I have seen play in my lifetime but if someone says they feel LeBron is/was, I am not ever going to tell them they are wrong.
Heck, I wouldn't tell people they were wrong if they felt Magic or Kobe were the best.

[TDub]

All depends on how he defines it. I'm not Paul Pierce.
Kareem's 1st 4 seasons on the Lakers he won a grand total of 2 playoff series.
Magic comes and his rookie season they win the championship. If I'm not mistaken he's the only rookie to win a Finals MVP.

MJ's first 3 seasons the Bulls won a grand total of 0 playoff series.
Scottie comes and....

....nevermind.

Yea, you're right. Lebron has won a lot of titles without a 2nd or 3rd or 4th other star.

[Deleted User 310]

All depends on how he defines it. I'm not Paul Pierce.
Kareem's 1st 4 seasons on the Lakers he won a grand total of 2 playoff series.
Magic comes and his rookie season they win the championship. If I'm not mistaken he's the only rookie to win a Finals MVP.

MJ's first 3 seasons the Bulls won a grand total of 0 playoff series.
Scottie comes and....

....nevermind.

Yea, you're right. Lebron has won a lot of titles without a 2nd or 3rd or 4th other star.

I am not sure anyone has in recent memory that I can think of. For almost my entire lifetime it has taken 1-3 stars to win a championship.

The problem is that Cleveland upper management appeared either incapable or unwilling to do it organically during his 1st time with them...it was only after he left that they were so bad that they were able to draft Kyrie and then Wiggins (to trade for Love, which looks better and better as the years go on)...and i know lebron was there before the Love trade, but I would still consider that an organic move since they naturally acquired the pick for wiggins by being bad. Trades are part of sports. For reference, for purposes of this discussion, I do not consider how the Miami team was created as organic even though free agent signings are also part of sports.

The fact is that Cleveland upper management have proven repeatedly to not be very good at their job. That's why the have consistently sucked without lebron.

[Deleted User 289]

MJ's first 3 seasons the Bulls won a grand total of 0 playoff series.
Scottie comes and....

....nevermind.

Yea, you're right. Lebron has won a lot of titles without a 2nd or 3rd or 4th other star.

I am not sure anyone has in recent memory that I can think of. For almost my entire lifetime it has taken 1-3 stars to win a championship.

The problem is that Cleveland upper management appeared either incapable or unwilling to do it organically during his 1st time with them...it was only after he left that they were so bad that they were able to draft Kyrie and then Wiggins (to trade for Love, which looks better and better as the years go on)...and i know lebron was there before the Love trade, but I would still consider that an organic move since they naturally acquired the pick for wiggins by being bad. Trades are part of sports. For reference, for purposes of this discussion, I do not consider how the Miami team was created as organic even though free agent signings are also part of sports.

The fact is that Cleveland upper management have proven repeatedly to not be very good at their job. That's why the have consistently sucked without lebron.

The NBA is a very confusing league these days.
Do I recall correctly that the Raptors didn't have a single player who was a lottery pick when they won the Championship?
The Bucks have the best record in the league and were on pace to win about 68 games.
I think most people would agree Giannis is probably one of the 5 best players in the league. 15th pick in the 2013 draft.
Khris Middleton, a 2nd round draft pick is the 2nd best player on the Bucks.
Eric Bledsoe, not a lottery pick.
Then you look at the 22-43 Bulls and you see LaVine - lottery pick. Carter Jr. - lottery pick. Dunn - lottery pick. Markkanen - lottery pick. Valentine - lottery pick. White - lottery pick. Young - lottery pick. Collectively - JUNK!

That's an example of why I feel in today's NBA I am confident you can't "build" a team. You need to "buy"/"trade" a team.

[Deleted User 310]

Yea, you're right. Lebron has won a lot of titles without a 2nd or 3rd or 4th other star.

I am not sure anyone has in recent memory that I can think of. For almost my entire lifetime it has taken 1-3 stars to win a championship.

The problem is that Cleveland upper management appeared either incapable or unwilling to do it organically during his 1st time with them...it was only after he left that they were so bad that they were able to draft Kyrie and then Wiggins (to trade for Love, which looks better and better as the years go on)...and i know lebron was there before the Love trade, but I would still consider that an organic move since they naturally acquired the pick for wiggins by being bad. Trades are part of sports. For reference, for purposes of this discussion, I do not consider how the Miami team was created as organic even though free agent signings are also part of sports.

The fact is that Cleveland upper management have proven repeatedly to not be very good at their job. That's why the have consistently sucked without lebron.

The NBA is a very confusing league these days.
Do I recall correctly that the Raptors didn't have a single player who was a lottery pick when they won the Championship?
The Bucks have the best record in the league and were on pace to win about 68 games.
I think most people would agree Giannis is probably one of the 5 best players in the league. 15th pick in the 2013 draft.
Khris Middleton, a 2nd round draft pick is the 2nd best player on the Bucks.
Eric Bledsoe, not a lottery pick.
Then you look at the 22-43 Bulls and you see LaVine - lottery pick. Carter Jr. - lottery pick. Dunn - lottery pick. Markkanen - lottery pick. Valentine - lottery pick. White - lottery pick. Young - lottery pick. Collectively - JUNK!

Ya. Raptors are the closest thing I can remember. Kawhi a top 5 player in the league. Lowry a top 20ish player. Siakam top 30ish?...but even then they still had Ibaka and Gasol iirc who are both former all stars...and Kawhi was acquired by trading a player that was drafted in the lottery.

Yes, if the bucks win or could have won this year that'd be the best example of a 1 superstar team climbing the mountain, but Giannis has had issues in the playoffs when teams can really focus on him for multiple games in a row because he can't shoot.

The trend of the last decade of how teams are built via free agency has made it almost impossible to organically create a super team...and yet the warriors did it prior to the KD signing. Makes what they did even more impressive imo. OKC was on their way but made a bad move keeping Ibaka over Harden and then obviously KD leaving to join an already established super team.

[Deleted User 89]

i’d like to see a compilation of the NBA’s top 50 players’ personal top 5 or 10, then tally who has the most votes

Me too but it would be difficult to get a top 5 or 10 from the dead guys. Just sayin'.

details, gutman...