Who is the GOAT

[PhDhawk]

Olajuwan won 2 titles back to back. Otis thorpe was the next best player on the first title.

[CrimsonNBlue]

The trend of the last decade of how teams are built via free agency has made it almost impossible to organically create a super team...

The. Process.

[NDballer13]

All depends on how he defines it. I'm not Paul Pierce.
Kareem's 1st 4 seasons on the Lakers he won a grand total of 2 playoff series.
Magic comes and his rookie season they win the championship. If I'm not mistaken he's the only rookie to win a Finals MVP.

MJ's first 3 seasons the Bulls won a grand total of 0 playoff series.
Scottie comes and....

....nevermind.

Yea, you're right. Lebron has won a lot of titles without a 2nd or 3rd or 4th other star.

Exactly! That was more of a little poke the bear type of a post.

It was still kind of referencing how Pierce doesn't consider him one of the greatest because he didn't build a team from the ground up. When you look at history, how many of the other players he named ahead of LeBron have done that? They have all been successful thanks to having other stars on the team.

MJ had Pippen. Kareem had Magic. Magic had Worthy. LeBron had Wade. Bird had McHale. Kobe had Shaq. The list goes on for anyone you consider in the goat conversation.

[pdub]

You aren't winning titles if your 2nd best player is Drew Gooden.

[Deleted User 289]

The trend of the last decade of how teams are built via free agency has made it almost impossible to organically create a super team...

The. Process.

I was thinking "the process" too - in terms of an exception.
You would think "the process" would be a top 3 duo in the NBA by now but I'm not too sure they are. Heck, they may not be top 5.
Can you tell me that you feel Embiid and Simmons > James/Davis, Leonard/George, Durant/Irving, Harden/Westbrook, Curry/Thompson, or even Giannis/Middleton?
Jimmy Butler was probably the best player in the playoffs for the Sixers last season. He's gone.
Harris, Richardson, Horford, and Burks are probably the 4 best players on the Sixers not named Embiid or Simmons. If there is a 2020 playoffs, one of those guys better be Butler like or the Sixers might not win 2 series.

[TDub]

MJ's first 3 seasons the Bulls won a grand total of 0 playoff series.
Scottie comes and....

....nevermind.

Yea, you're right. Lebron has won a lot of titles without a 2nd or 3rd or 4th other star.

Exactly! That was more of a little poke the bear type of a post.

It was still kind of referencing how Pierce doesn't consider him one of the greatest because he didn't build a team from the ground up. When you look at history, how many of the other players he named ahead of LeBron have done that? They have all been successful thanks to having other stars on the team.

MJ had Pippen. Kareem had Magic. Magic had Worthy. LeBron had Wade. Bird had McHale. Kobe had Shaq. The list goes on for anyone you consider in the goat conversation.

Yea, i mean I get your point and agree for the most part. I would argue there is a little difference between MJ and Pip and Lebron. MJ needed Pip but they kind of "grew up together " for lack of a better term. They took their losses from the pistons together and grew into champions. Lebron seems to seek out already established stars to team up with and try to win. Thats a big difference in my analysis. Of course, my opinion is as worthless as the rest of them too, so theres that.

[TDub]

Nobody knew Pip was going to be as good as he was and I would think MJ helped him become the player he became by pushing him and giving him thw confidence he needed to succeed. To their credit they both stuck around long enough for that to come to fruition.

[Cascadia]

All the ‘LeBron is the GOAT’ people will be claiming Zion is the GOAT in 10 years. Whatever the shiny new object is

[NDballer13]

The trend of the last decade of how teams are built via free agency has made it almost impossible to organically create a super team...

The. Process.

I was thinking "the process" too - in terms of an exception.
You would think "the process" would be a top 3 duo in the NBA by now but I'm not too sure they are. Heck, they may not be top 5.
Can you tell me that you feel Embiid and Simmons > James/Davis, Leonard/George, Durant/Irving, Harden/Westbrook, Curry/Thompson, or even Giannis/Middleton?
Jimmy Butler was probably the best player in the playoffs for the Sixers last season. He's gone.
Harris, Richardson, Horford, and Burks are probably the 4 best players on the Sixers not named Embiid or Simmons. If there is a 2020 playoffs, one of those guys better be Butler like or the Sixers might not win 2 series.

They are getting half the process right. Curry/Thompson is the only duo playing on the team that drafted them. Giannis is the only other player you named to even be on his drafted team. Philly got what they wanted from the process in the draft, just now they need to figure out the free agency aspect.

They can also get anyone they want, but as long as Simmons refuses to shoot 3s, they won't win anything. Even if he's a 25-30% shooter to start. You have to at least make the defense think it's an option.

[NDballer13]

All the ‘LeBron is the GOAT’ people will be claiming Zion is the GOAT in 10 years. Whatever the shiny new object is

Bold prediction - Zion isn't in the league in 10 years. If he is, he's certainly not a teams #1 player. 3 different leg injuries in 3 years, carrying that weight, on a player who's main skill is his explosiveness. I don't like it.

[pdub]

In 10 years, if Zion is on pace to break the all-time points record, be top 5 in all time assists, have 4 league MVPs and have 1 or 2 championships by then, then sure, Zion can get in the convo.

[Deleted User 289]

You aren't winning titles if your 2nd best player is Drew Gooden.

I agree it would be impossible to win titles with the crap he had but I'm not too sure Gooden was ever the 2nd best player on the team. Maybe? I might put Ilgauskas (sp?), Hughes, West, McInnis, and others ahead of Gooden.
Only reason why I faulted him for leaving Cleveland is/was because he had a legitimate chance to win a title his last 4 seasons there - and I felt he quit on his teammates and his city - that was so dear to him.

[pdub]

Listen to the guys you are arguing are maybe better than Gooden.

[Deleted User 289]

I'm listening. As I said, "the crap he had". Meanwhile, those guys were probably just as good if not better than Gooden.

[NDballer13]

You aren't winning titles if your 2nd best player is Drew Gooden.

I agree it would be impossible to win titles with the crap he had but I'm not too sure Gooden was ever the 2nd best player on the team. Maybe? I might put Ilgauskas (sp?), Hughes, West, McInnis, and others ahead of Gooden.
Only reason why I faulted him for leaving Cleveland is/was because he had a legitimate chance to win a title his last 4 seasons there - and I felt he quit on his teammates and his city - that was so dear to him.

You agree it would be impossible to win with the crap he had (that you listed), then fault him for leaving when he had a legitimate chance to win. The only difference between the crap he had and his last year in Cleveland was Mo Williams. That doesn't make that team a legit championship team.

[Cascadia]

No one wanted to play with LeBron.

See
Carlos Boozer
Kawhi Leonard
Chris Paul
Paul George
Etc

[Deleted User 89]

Nobody knew Pip was going to be as good as he was and I would think MJ helped him become the player he became by pushing him and giving him thw confidence he needed to succeed. To their credit they both stuck around long enough for that to come to fruition.

exactly

Pip didn’t even have any scholarship offers out of high school, and played NAIA ball at Central Arkansas

amazing what an extra 7” does for a basketball career

[CrimsonNBlue]

No one wanted to play with LeBron.

See
Carlos Boozer
Kawhi Leonard
Chris Paul
Paul George
Etc

It’s weird that people forget that LeBron wasn’t a player that others wanted to play with early on. That was a big thing that’s not mentioned when the Cavs get shit for not putting guys around him.

His style was not great to play with. He’s way better now.

[pdub]

LeBron's the GM!!!

[NDballer13]

Nobody knew Pip was going to be as good as he was and I would think MJ helped him become the player he became by pushing him and giving him thw confidence he needed to succeed. To their credit they both stuck around long enough for that to come to fruition.

exactly

Pip didn’t even have any scholarship offers out of high school, and played NAIA ball at Central Arkansas

amazing what an extra 7” does for a basketball career

It's the same thing that happened to Anthony Davis. Just happened to Pippen in college and AD in high school. Summer going into AD's senior year the best offer he had was Cleveland St or something like that to play PG. All of a sudden he's 6'10" blocking everything in site while still having PG skills.

Sure, you can say no one knew Pippen was going to be a Top 50 player of all time, but people still saw a lot in him. He was taken 5th overall for a reason. He wasn't some 2nd round/undrafted gem.