Who is the GOAT

[CrimsonNBlue]

Nobody knew Pip was going to be as good as he was and I would think MJ helped him become the player he became by pushing him and giving him thw confidence he needed to succeed. To their credit they both stuck around long enough for that to come to fruition.

exactly

Pip didn’t even have any scholarship offers out of high school, and played NAIA ball at Central Arkansas

amazing what an extra 7” does for a basketball career

It's the same thing that happened to Anthony Davis. Just happened to Pippen in college and AD in high school. Summer going into AD's senior year the best offer he had was Cleveland St or something like that to play PG. All of a sudden he's 6'10" blocking everything in site while still having PG skills.

A tad off as AD's growth spurt started when he was a sophomore, 15 years old. By the time he was a senior, he was getting attention.

[NDballer13]

I knew it was a spurt in there somewhere that gave him a big boost, lol.

[CrimsonNBlue]

It's still incredible and shows how much height means in hoops.

Pippen's growth spurt, as a frosh/soph in college, though, just defies all biology and logic.

[PhDhawk]

David Robinson had a similar growth spurt at Navy.

[CrimsonNBlue]

David Robinson had a similar growth spurt at Navy.

I was just reading the below blog post and saw that--never knew that, it's incredible. 5'9" as a Junior in HS and ends up 7'1".


I'm not sure I believe the Rodman one. I'm sure he was 5'6" in HS, but I can't see him being on a college team as a 5'8" rebounder/defender. Growing 12" to 6'8" after HS seems too far out there.

https://fadeawayworld.com/2017/08/04/8- ... a-history/

[NDballer13]

That McCollum picture is still one of my all time favorites.

[PhDhawk]

I quit growing in 8th grade.

[Deleted User 289]

You aren't winning titles if your 2nd best player is Drew Gooden.

I agree it would be impossible to win titles with the crap he had but I'm not too sure Gooden was ever the 2nd best player on the team. Maybe? I might put Ilgauskas (sp?), Hughes, West, McInnis, and others ahead of Gooden.
Only reason why I faulted him for leaving Cleveland is/was because he had a legitimate chance to win a title his last 4 seasons there - and I felt he quit on his teammates and his city - that was so dear to him.

You agree it would be impossible to win with the crap he had (that you listed), then fault him for leaving when he had a legitimate chance to win. The only difference between the crap he had and his last year in Cleveland was Mo Williams. That doesn't make that team a legit championship team.

Mo Williams was the only difference?
I guess having Shaq and Antawn Jamison didn't help them win 61 regular season games in 09/10.
When you win 61 regular season games (more than any other team) chances are you have a "legitimate" chance to win a championship.

[Cascadia]

NDBaller would win the Gold Medal in Mental Gymnastics

[NDballer13]

I agree it would be impossible to win titles with the crap he had but I'm not too sure Gooden was ever the 2nd best player on the team. Maybe? I might put Ilgauskas (sp?), Hughes, West, McInnis, and others ahead of Gooden.
Only reason why I faulted him for leaving Cleveland is/was because he had a legitimate chance to win a title his last 4 seasons there - and I felt he quit on his teammates and his city - that was so dear to him.

You agree it would be impossible to win with the crap he had (that you listed), then fault him for leaving when he had a legitimate chance to win. The only difference between the crap he had and his last year in Cleveland was Mo Williams. That doesn't make that team a legit championship team.

Mo Williams was the only difference?
I guess having Shaq and Antawn Jamison didn't help them win 61 regular season games in 09/10.
When you win 61 regular season games (more than any other team) chances are you have a "legitimate" chance to win a championship.

My bad, I looked at the 08-09 team that won 66 games as their best chance. Where the lineup was LeBron, Williams, West, Ilgauskas, and Varejo. You know, the crap you agree it was impossible to win with.

Didn't think adding a 37 yr old Shaq and 34 yr old Antawn Jamison was quite the "here's your other star to be a contender" move. Shaq was playing for a check ever since he won a title in Miami. His Phoenix, Cleveland, and Boston years are the equivalent to MJ's Washington years.

Jamison was a decent player, and had a very good career, don't get me wrong. But he was hardly the Robin type of player to put a team over the top as a title contender as a primary sidekick. If he was going to win a title it was going to be in a reserve role playing ~20 minutes a game.

[Deleted User 289]

The 08-09 team had a fantastic season but he didn't leave after 09. The crap I mentioned included guys who were not on that 08-09 team but I agree with you - they had far from a "great" roster.
I mentioned the additions of Shaq and Jamison to the 09-10 team because they were guys that came to the Cavs to help LeBron win his first championship - and many thought/felt they could/would be the difference makers.
Jamison was coming off of a 20.5ppg and 8.8rpg season for Washington and put up 15.8ppg and 7.7rpg for the Cavs in 09-10. Obviously not exactly Scottie Pippen but still, nothing to sneeze at.
Then LeBron went up against a much more talented Celtics team, said he had enough, and took off - knowing unless he teamed up with 2 others to form a "Big 3", he probably was never going to win a championship. Good for him, unfortunate for his Cavs teammates.

We could go back and forth all day and night but I don't think we are really arguing so much as we are both coming up with "points" - to support what? You bring up excellent points and as I stated I'm not someone who disputes LeBron's greatness - and he's in my top 5.

[Deleted User 310]

My hot take that is maybe not so hot: had lebron never left he wouldn't have a championship. They'd have been too good to get a good draft pick and after that window closed the Warriors and other teams would have been too much to overcome.

[Deleted User 289]

We will never know. What we will know is that he won 3 championships and I felt he had a really good chance to win a 4th this season.

[Deleted User 310]

We will never know. What we will know is that he won 3 championships and I felt he had a really good chance to win a 4th this season.

Ya. I am curious to see if they restart and play the playoffs now that places are starting to open up.

[Deleted User 310]

"When you think about best all-around basketball player, LeBron is probbaly the best of all time....but when you want to say 'who is the greatest ever,' it's still MJ." --Magic Johnson

[pdub]

One thing we do know, if the season continues, and is altered, and the Lakers win a title, LeBron haters will say his fourth title doesn't count.

[NDballer13]

"When you think about best all-around basketball player, LeBron is probbaly the best of all time....but when you want to say 'who is the greatest ever,' it's still MJ." --Magic Johnson

And that logic makes zero sense to me, lol. It's like memes that say Jordan is the best player, then the next slot says LeBron is the best all-around player. How can you not be the best player if you're the best all-around player? What's the difference?

[Cascadia]

"When you think about best all-around basketball player, LeBron is probbaly the best of all time....but when you want to say 'who is the greatest ever,' it's still MJ." --Magic Johnson

And that logic makes zero sense to me, lol. It's like memes that say Jordan is the best player, then the next slot says LeBron is the best all-around player. How can you not be the best player if you're the best all-around player? What's the difference?

Your inability to comprehend is well known around here.

[NDballer13]

Then break it down for me. What's the difference between being the best all-around player and being the best player? If there are 100 categories in a game, and you're better at 75 of them, how is the other guy better at the game?

[pdub]

Doc might mean as a total all around player he thinks LeBron was better but MJ was just so good at scoring in his era and accomplished more things that makes him the greatest.

There are several things, passing and vision being the obvious, LeBron is better at than Jordan.