The Worst People in the World...

[DCHawk1]

At the least, he should not be able to return to his job as a police officer for a very long time.
And it shouldn't be suspended with pay - it should be kicked out entirely and maybe don't kill people at your next job.

Maybe.

But this isn't anywhere near as clear cut as you make it seem.

Pretty clear cut.
Guy was fired.
So.....fuck you?

My god, you're a dense cunt.

Also, fuck you.

[pdub]

Officer should be off the force for good and tried for something....murder even?
Fuck that guy.

Wrong.

Just 'wrong'.
1st - he's off the force.
2nd - let's see if he gets charged - I think he should.
3rd - fuck that guy - this remains correct. Hands in your pockets with your knee on the neck of an unconscious handcuffed human.

[Shirley]

Go try your tired schtick on somebody else, you "shitty partisan hack".

For fuck's sake. I have THREE replies between the Rhodes tweet and the reply you quote. And three of your replies to me.

Talk about gaslighting. Honestly. I'm worried about your well-being.

So, despite the fact that you specifically mentioned Ben Rhodes in the post I quoted and responded to:

...In truth, I care when shitty partisan hacks like Ben Rhodes politicize and weaponize the virus, just as some posters on this board care when shitty partisan hacks like Donald Trump do the same...

That post doesn't count, or doesn't exist, because...because...because...because

"twenty minute" rule

and

DC's having one of his episodes.

Got it.

Get help.

[DCHawk1]

Go try your tired schtick on somebody else, you "shitty partisan hack".

For fuck's sake. I have THREE replies between the Rhodes tweet and the reply you quote. And three of your replies to me.

Talk about gaslighting. Honestly. I'm worried about your well-being.

So, despite the fact that you specifically mentioned Ben Rhodes in the post I quoted and responded to:

...In truth, I care when shitty partisan hacks like Ben Rhodes politicize and weaponize the virus, just as some posters on this board care when shitty partisan hacks like Donald Trump do the same...

That post doesn't count, or doesn't exist, because...because...because...because

"twenty minute" rule

and

DC's having one of his episodes.

Got it.

Get help.

I suppose if I spent 75% of my time on the board today defending Ben Rhodes, I'd be an asshole too.

[DCHawk1]

Officer should be off the force for good and tried for something....murder even?
Fuck that guy.

Wrong.

Just 'wrong'.
1st - he's off the force.
2nd - let's see if he gets charged - I think he should.
3rd - fuck that guy - this remains correct. Hands in your pockets with your knee on the neck of an unconscious handcuffed human.

Yes. Based on what you knew and I knew at the time, your statement was wrong.

Of course, in your haste to be a cunt and to insist that that due process is a trite fiction, you seem to have overlooked this bit: "In the absence of more clarifying information/video, this is on the department, not the individual cop."

Presumably, the department has more information, which is why it fired ALL four. I'm not sure why you're patting yourself on the back for beinmg the first to the lynch mob, but I guess we all measure our self-worth differently.


Also, fuck you.

[twocoach]

Right.

And I'm saying that he did so because he was taught to do something similar but not taught well enough, which means that his department put him in a bad position and IT bears the brunt of the responsibility.

Do you actually know that or are you just assuming that must be the case?

You could read the other posts in the thread if you wanted to.

I have. It's gross. Your comment of "most LEOs are poorly trained and placed in harm's way unfairly and thus deserve the right to due process" also sounds like a huge personal assumption on your part. And they deserve the right to due process regardless of the quality of their training.

Perhaps he received excellent training and simply does not have the discipline needed to adhere to his training when things don't go exactly as the officer demands. It seems like a very stressful job that not everyone is equipped to handle under stress. Or perhaps he doesn't give a fuck about what he was trained to do and just wanted to show the guy who was boss.

These are both also huge assumptions. The difference is that I don't try to pass them off as some sort of fact.

[DCHawk1]

Do you actually know that or are you just assuming that must be the case?

You could read the other posts in the thread if you wanted to.

I have. It's gross. Your comment of "most LEOs are poorly trained and placed in harm's way unfairly and thus deserve the right to due process" also sounds like a huge personal assumption on your part. And they deserve the right to due process regardless of the quality of their training.

Perhaps he received excellent training and simply does not have the discipline needed to adhere to his training when things don't go exactly as the officer demands. It seems like a very stressful job that not everyone is equipped to handle under stress. Or perhaps he doesn't give a fuck about what he was trained to do and just wanted to show the guy who was boss.

These are both also huge assumptions. The difference is that I don't try to pass them off as some sort of fact.

What's gross? That I would want to know what the officer was trained to do before I decide who is responsible for a man's death? Because that's ALL I said. I didn't say that no one should be held responsible. i din't say that extenuating circumstances make this OK. I didn't say anything at all like that. I said, based on what the video shows, that what the officer did was WRONG. If wanting to know why he did it is what you think is "gross," then so be it.

Your comment of "most LEOs are poorly trained and placed in harm's way unfairly and thus deserve the right to due process" also sounds like a huge personal assumption on your part. And they deserve the right to due process regardless of the quality of their training.

What the fuck does that even mean? You're agreeing with me the PDub is a cunt? because he was the one insisting that due process is not necessary. As for my "huge personal assumption" I would guess that you mean that I am assuming that "most LEOs are poorly trained and placed in harm's way unfairly." Because if that's what you mean, you're wrong. That's not an assumption. It's a fact. When it comes to subduing a someone who is resisting, most LEOs get shit for training, which means that they are sent out on the streets with no idea what they're doing or how to do it without seriously injuring or killing someone. That's a systemic failure and a systemic disgrace. If that's what you think is "gross," then so be it.

Perhaps he received excellent training and simply does not have the discipline needed to adhere to his training when things don't go exactly as the officer demands. It seems like a very stressful job that not everyone is equipped to handle under stress. Or perhaps he doesn't give a fuck about what he was trained to do and just wanted to show the guy who was boss.

Maybe. But with the exception of the "received excellent training" part, none of that, in any way contradicts what I said. The cop may be the biggest, most racist asshole in the country, who killed the guy for sport. But that doesn't mean that LEOs are trained properly to subdue people.


I mean...you don't even have to take my word for it. You could actually fucking read something for a change.

https://www.policeforum.org/assets/reen ... ining1.pdf

First, the training currently provided to new recruits and experienced officers in most departments is inadequate.

A survey of police agencies that we conducted for this project revealed that we give officers many hours of training in how to shoot a gun. But we spend much less time discussing the importance of de-escalation tactics and Crisis Intervention strategies...

Second, minimizing use of force requires changes in policy and training, but that is not
enough. In several ways, this is also a question of police culture....

Summary: It’s time for an overhaul of police training, policy, supervision, and culture on use
of force....

Recruit Training: Hours Spent on Use-of-Force Topics (median values)
Firearms 58
Defensive Tactics 49
Con Law/Legal Issues 40
Basic first‐aid 16
UoF Scenario‐Based Training 24
Communication Skills 10
UoF Policy 8
De‐escalation 8
Crisis Intervention 8
Baton 8
ECW 8
OC Spray 6



49 hours of ALL defensive tactics. That's it. 49 fucking hours. And based on what I know, much of that will be weapons-retention techniques, not subduing suspects.



So...kindly join PDub in fucking off.

[pdub]

I don't need any hours of training before I know not to put my knee on someone's neck for 10 minutes.

[DCHawk1]

I don't need any hours of training before I know not to put my knee on someone's neck for 10 minutes.

I would hope not.

But then, we've already concluded that that was wrong.



Also, fuck you.

[seahawk]

Seriously?
The guy was handcuffed.
The officer was pressing his knee into his neck for minutes despite him screaming that he couldn't breathe.

The police officer killed that man.
They need to be held responsible for mistakes like this.

First, neither of us knows exactly what transpired before the video. We know he resisted, and we know he was big guy, which means that if he was still struggling, even cuffed he could have been potentially dangerous. In that situation, the cop would have been taught to do (almost) exactly what he did: make the guy face away from him and apply pressure until he complies. As I said, the knee should have been on the head, not the neck, for two reasons: it hurts more and it avoids the possibility of what happened.

MOST LEOS are so poorly trained in this stuff that it's frankly surprising we don't see more incidents like this.

Have you seen video of him resisting, DC? Because unless you have, you have no idea whether he resisted or not. I'll quote someone that was a prosecutor and a judge for 35 years, "The cops always say he resisted, no matter what."

And poorly trained, that is a lame excuse, even for you. It's not about training, brutal and racist cops just haven't caught up with the times and realized that all God's children got a cell phone and that when they see the police murdering people on the street, they pull them out and video stuff. Cops used to spend their time blaming everything on prosecutors and judges and paying no attention to training or rules. Now, citizens just upload the video and it's on the 6 o'clock news.

Oh, and DC, I've worked with good cops and know that they know the difference between brutal, murderous behavior and their average arrests. You insult all the decent police with your defense of these guys.

[DCHawk1]

Seriously?
The guy was handcuffed.
The officer was pressing his knee into his neck for minutes despite him screaming that he couldn't breathe.

The police officer killed that man.
They need to be held responsible for mistakes like this.

First, neither of us knows exactly what transpired before the video. We know he resisted, and we know he was big guy, which means that if he was still struggling, even cuffed he could have been potentially dangerous. In that situation, the cop would have been taught to do (almost) exactly what he did: make the guy face away from him and apply pressure until he complies. As I said, the knee should have been on the head, not the neck, for two reasons: it hurts more and it avoids the possibility of what happened.

MOST LEOS are so poorly trained in this stuff that it's frankly surprising we don't see more incidents like this.

Have you seen video of him resisting, DC? Because unless you have, you have no idea whether he resisted or not. I'll quote someone that was a prosecutor and a judge for 35 years, "The cops always say he resisted, no matter what."

And poorly trained, that is a lame excuse, even for you. It's not about training, brutal and racist cops just haven't caught up with the times and realized that all God's children got a cell phone and that when they see the police murdering people on the street, they pull them out and video stuff. Cops used to spend their time blaming everything on prosecutors and judges and paying no attention to training or rules. Now, citizens just upload the video and it's on the 6 o'clock news.

Oh, and DC, I've worked with good cops and know that they know the difference between brutal, murderous behavior and their average arrests. You insult all the decent police with your defense of these guys.

Cops used to spend their time blaming everything on prosecutors and judges and paying no attention to training or rules. Now, citizens just upload the video and it's on the 6 o'clock news....

You insult all the decent police....

Life comes at you fast?

[Deleted User 289]

Pretty strong post by The King.
Color of his skin very well may have been a factor but I'm not too sure how anyone knows for sure.




Anyone see this? It's old but I someone sent it to me today.

[twocoach]

You could read the other posts in the thread if you wanted to.

I have. It's gross. Your comment of "most LEOs are poorly trained and placed in harm's way unfairly and thus deserve the right to due process" also sounds like a huge personal assumption on your part. And they deserve the right to due process regardless of the quality of their training.

Perhaps he received excellent training and simply does not have the discipline needed to adhere to his training when things don't go exactly as the officer demands. It seems like a very stressful job that not everyone is equipped to handle under stress. Or perhaps he doesn't give a fuck about what he was trained to do and just wanted to show the guy who was boss.

These are both also huge assumptions. The difference is that I don't try to pass them off as some sort of fact.

What's gross? That I would want to know what the officer was trained to do before I decide who is responsible for a man's death? Because that's ALL I said. I didn't say that no one should be held responsible. i din't say that extenuating circumstances make this OK. I didn't say anything at all like that. I said, based on what the video shows, that what the officer did was WRONG. If wanting to know why he did it is what you think is "gross," then so be it.

Your comment of "most LEOs are poorly trained and placed in harm's way unfairly and thus deserve the right to due process" also sounds like a huge personal assumption on your part. And they deserve the right to due process regardless of the quality of their training.

What the fuck does that even mean? You're agreeing with me the PDub is a cunt? because he was the one insisting that due process is not necessary. As for my "huge personal assumption" I would guess that you mean that I am assuming that "most LEOs are poorly trained and placed in harm's way unfairly." Because if that's what you mean, you're wrong. That's not an assumption. It's a fact. When it comes to subduing a someone who is resisting, most LEOs get shit for training, which means that they are sent out on the streets with no idea what they're doing or how to do it without seriously injuring or killing someone. That's a systemic failure and a systemic disgrace. If that's what you think is "gross," then so be it.

Perhaps he received excellent training and simply does not have the discipline needed to adhere to his training when things don't go exactly as the officer demands. It seems like a very stressful job that not everyone is equipped to handle under stress. Or perhaps he doesn't give a fuck about what he was trained to do and just wanted to show the guy who was boss.

Maybe. But with the exception of the "received excellent training" part, none of that, in any way contradicts what I said. The cop may be the biggest, most racist asshole in the country, who killed the guy for sport. But that doesn't mean that LEOs are trained properly to subdue people.


I mean...you don't even have to take my word for it. You could actually fucking read something for a change.

https://www.policeforum.org/assets/reen ... ining1.pdf

First, the training currently provided to new recruits and experienced officers in most departments is inadequate.

A survey of police agencies that we conducted for this project revealed that we give officers many hours of training in how to shoot a gun. But we spend much less time discussing the importance of de-escalation tactics and Crisis Intervention strategies...

Second, minimizing use of force requires changes in policy and training, but that is not
enough. In several ways, this is also a question of police culture....

Summary: It’s time for an overhaul of police training, policy, supervision, and culture on use
of force....

Recruit Training: Hours Spent on Use-of-Force Topics (median values)
Firearms 58
Defensive Tactics 49
Con Law/Legal Issues 40
Basic first‐aid 16
UoF Scenario‐Based Training 24
Communication Skills 10
UoF Policy 8
De‐escalation 8
Crisis Intervention 8
Baton 8
ECW 8
OC Spray 6



49 hours of ALL defensive tactics. That's it. 49 fucking hours. And based on what I know, much of that will be weapons-retention techniques, not subduing suspects.



So...kindly join PDub in fucking off.

No, you said "he was taught to do something similar but not taught well enough, which means that his department put him in a bad position and IT bears the brunt of the responsibility."

That's a statement about how he was trained, not a question about how he was trained. Those are two totally different things.

And thanks for the link to the five year old report. Really seems to have made a big difference in things since then....

[Geezer]

Doesn't take training to know not to kill a man in handcuffs by knelling on his neck. You should be born with that.

[imzcount]

I'm with DC and Candace!

[DCHawk1]

No, you said "he was taught to do something similar but not taught well enough, which means that his department put him in a bad position and IT bears the brunt of the responsibility."

That's a statement about how he was trained, not a question about how he was trained. Those are two totally different things.

And thanks for the link to the five year old report. Really seems to have made a big difference in things since then....

Will you do me a favor? Explain the differences, in this context, between saying that he was trained to do something and asking if he was trained to something? You seem to think that holds the key to deciphering my position on this whole matter, and I think it's a distinction without a difference. So would you be kind enough to explain the critical difference, keeping in mind the fact that I know, for a fact, that in that situation, the appropriate restraint technique is to put the suspect on his stomach, hands behind his back, facing away from you, with the back knee essentially in his ear?

I'm curious not just what you think the difference is but also why it matters.

[DCHawk1]

Doesn't take training to know not to kill a man in handcuffs by kneeling on his neck. You should be born with that.

FYP

[DCHawk1]

I'm with DC and Candace!

No.

[ousdahl]

holy balls, just catching up on this thread!

the last way I expected it to end was with DC arguing with count.

[TDub]

holy balls, just catching up on this thread!

the last way I expected it to end was with DC arguing with count.

Really? Then you havent been paying attention. The fact that you loop those two together explains a lot.