Dumbfuck in charge

[DCHawk1]

If we're fortunate to have witnesses catch it on video from multiple angles.

OK.

Is it your contention, then, that the Police Department of the city of Minneapolis is in the habit of using excessive force against and killing black men? That this is endemic behavior among police in Minneapolis and that what happened to George Floyd is but the tip of the proverbial iceberg?

As a former Law Enforcement officer...yes.
It is a by product of improprieties being ignored...escalating each time.

It of course happens, and gets officially written off. At least, until hard evidence shows it to actually have occurred.

I have seen dozens of police officers throw handcuffed men down flights of stairs.
I have witnessed many dozens of arrests being made outside of Miranda or many other lawful practices.
I have seen, and testified against, sworn testimony that simply went against truth.

If you fall into the mind set that police are infallible....you are part of the problem......barely recognizable to the truth

Thanks. I appreciate your perspective, and was waiting for you to chime in.

But 2 things: First, I don't think ANYONE said police are infallible or that they don't make mistakes. In fact, I think EVERYONE has said the opposite, with the distinction being who is to blame and in what proportion.

Second, that doesn't really answer the question about whether violence against black men by the Minneapolis PD specifically is endemic.

The MPD was responsible for killing 8 people from 2013 to 2018. That averages out to 3.0 police-caused deaths per million residents per year. That's BELOW the national average of 3.4 and WELL below the rate for twocoach's beloved Omaha PD (@5.2). (It also happens to be well above the average for the police department whose officers I'm most familiar with, but that's probably not relevant).

4 of those killed were black (1 Latino, 1 white, and 2 not disclosed).

Additionally, statistics show that 90-95% of subjects killed by police were armed when killed. If we apply that to the MPD #s, we get 1 person in six years who was unarmed. In a perfect world, that's 1 too many, granted, but is it proof of anything?

Also, I realize that killings and "excessive force" are not necessarily the same thing, but it's not an unreasonable proxy, especially given the limits of online data.

[sdoyel]

[sdoyel]

[TDub]

So what Ive read here is that it IS the neo nazis and white supremacists that are crossing state lines to loot and incite violence. So which is it?

[twocoach]

OK.

Is it your contention, then, that the Police Department of the city of Minneapolis is in the habit of using excessive force against and killing black men? That this is endemic behavior among police in Minneapolis and that what happened to George Floyd is but the tip of the proverbial iceberg?

As a former Law Enforcement officer...yes.
It is a by product of improprieties being ignored...escalating each time.

It of course happens, and gets officially written off. At least, until hard evidence shows it to actually have occurred.

I have seen dozens of police officers throw handcuffed men down flights of stairs.
I have witnessed many dozens of arrests being made outside of Miranda or many other lawful practices.
I have seen, and testified against, sworn testimony that simply went against truth.

If you fall into the mind set that police are infallible....you are part of the problem......barely recognizable to the truth

Thanks. I appreciate your perspective, and was waiting for you to chime in.

But 2 things: First, I don't think ANYONE said police are infallible or that they don't make mistakes. In fact, I think EVERYONE has said the opposite, with the distinction being who is to blame and in what proportion.

Second, that doesn't really answer the question about whether violence against black men by the Minneapolis PD specifically is endemic.

The MPD was responsible for killing 8 people from 2013 to 2018. That averages out to 3.0 police-caused deaths per million residents per year. That's BELOW the national average of 3.4 and WELL below the rate for twocoach's beloved Omaha PD (@5.2). (It also happens to be well above the average for the police department whose officers I'm most familiar with, but that's probably not relevant).

4 of those killed were black (1 Latino, 1 white, and 2 not disclosed).

Additionally, statistics show that 90-95% of subjects killed by police were armed when killed. If we apply that to the MPD #s, we get 1 person in six years who was unarmed. In a perfect world, that's 1 too many, granted, but is it proof of anything?

Also, I realize that killings and "excessive force" are not necessarily the same thing, but it's not an unreasonable proxy, especially given the limits of online data.

Are you trying to "statistic" us into believing that there isn't actually a problem? Yes, that's 1 person per six years for one police department.

There are nearly 18,000 police departments at the city, county, state and federal level.

What jeepinjayhawk described feels like what is endemic to many police forces. Many incidents like he described aren't counted in your beloved statistics, yet they still result in the continuing erosion of faith in the communities that these officers are supposed to be serving that the police can be trusted.

[Deleted User 89]

i wonder how much of the difficulty associated with getting rid of bad eggs has to do with unions, vs individual departments and the like

i could be wrong, but it seems a little lazy to just blame the big bad unions

[Deleted User 89]

https://www.usatoday.com/in-depth/news/ ... 223984002/

[Deleted User 289]

Donald Trump is a piece of shit. What more really needs to be said on THIS thread?
Sorry for the interruption!
Just felt the need to express my opinion on the original topic.
Carry on and please rightfully vent about whatever you choose.

[DCHawk1]

Are you trying to "statistic" us into believing that there isn't actually a problem? Yes, that's 1 person per six years for one police department.

There are nearly 18,000 police departments at the city, county, state and federal level.

What jeepinjayhawk described feels like what is endemic to many police forces. Many incidents like he described aren't counted in your beloved statistics, yet they still result in the continuing erosion of faith in the communities that these officers are supposed to be serving that the police can be trusted.

My God.

The question I asked was about the MPD.

I'm so sorry if I confused you by discussing statistics instead of "feels likes."

[twocoach]

i wonder how much of the difficulty associated with getting rid of bad eggs has to do with unions, vs individual departments and the like

i could be wrong, but it seems a little lazy to just blame the big bad unions

No one is JUST blaming unions. No one is JUST saying we have to pull a few bad apples out of the tree. We need a comprehensive review and overhaul of the entire fucking system. Better training, more accountability, transparent reporting of officer-involved incidents, open discussions with community leaders. More financial incentives for citizens of minority communities to join the police force serving that community. And these are just a drop in the bucket.

There are communities that do not believe they are safe when they encounter a police officer. That is a problem.

[DCHawk1]

i wonder how much of the difficulty associated with getting rid of bad eggs has to do with unions, vs individual departments and the like

i could be wrong, but it seems a little lazy to just blame the big bad unions

Also a little lazy not to inform oneself about police unions and to go with a "seems like" instead.

But then no one "blamed" the unions. There's a difference between blaming them and stating that they're a big part of the problem.

[DCHawk1]

https://www.usatoday.com/in-depth/news/ ... 223984002/

Thanks for this.

[Deleted User 89]

i wonder how much of the difficulty associated with getting rid of bad eggs has to do with unions, vs individual departments and the like

i could be wrong, but it seems a little lazy to just blame the big bad unions

Also a little lazy not to inform oneself about police unions and to go with a "seems like" instead.

But then no one "blamed" the unions. There's a difference between blaming them and stating that they're a big part of the problem.

what’s you’re guesstament on the proportion of blame?

-unions
-unions/politicians
-bureaucracy of individual departments
-hiring practices of individual departments

[twocoach]

Are you trying to "statistic" us into believing that there isn't actually a problem? Yes, that's 1 person per six years for one police department.

There are nearly 18,000 police departments at the city, county, state and federal level.

What jeepinjayhawk described feels like what is endemic to many police forces. Many incidents like he described aren't counted in your beloved statistics, yet they still result in the continuing erosion of faith in the communities that these officers are supposed to be serving that the police can be trusted.

My God.

The question I asked was about the MPD.

I'm so sorry if I confused you by discussing statistics instead of "feels likes."

No one is claiming that the MPD has an endemic issue with officers killing citizens. You're trying to prove wrong a statement that no one is making and then yelling at everyone for not embracing your reasoning.

I do agree with you that in general, the country would be better off if folks researched more and screamed less. I have believed for the last 4 years that we would not have Dumbfuck In Charge if more people researched the stupid ass reasonings they used to discredit Clinton.

[twocoach]

i wonder how much of the difficulty associated with getting rid of bad eggs has to do with unions, vs individual departments and the like

i could be wrong, but it seems a little lazy to just blame the big bad unions

Also a little lazy not to inform oneself about police unions and to go with a "seems like" instead.

But then no one "blamed" the unions. There's a difference between blaming them and stating that they're a big part of the problem.

what’s you’re guesstament on the proportion of blame?

-unions
-unions/politicians
-bureaucracy of individual departments
-hiring practices of individual departments

How could it possibly be anything more than a wild ass guess based on personal experience?

[DCHawk1]

i wonder how much of the difficulty associated with getting rid of bad eggs has to do with unions, vs individual departments and the like

i could be wrong, but it seems a little lazy to just blame the big bad unions

Also a little lazy not to inform oneself about police unions and to go with a "seems like" instead.

But then no one "blamed" the unions. There's a difference between blaming them and stating that they're a big part of the problem.

what’s you’re guesstament on the proportion of blame?

-unions
-unions/politicians
-bureaucracy of individual departments
-hiring practices of individual departments

I don't know that I could guess with any accuracy.

I think hiring practices would be at the bottom of list, given that most departments have been trying for years to hire forces that reflect the community. But I honestly don't know.

[DCHawk1]

Are you trying to "statistic" us into believing that there isn't actually a problem? Yes, that's 1 person per six years for one police department.

There are nearly 18,000 police departments at the city, county, state and federal level.

What jeepinjayhawk described feels like what is endemic to many police forces. Many incidents like he described aren't counted in your beloved statistics, yet they still result in the continuing erosion of faith in the communities that these officers are supposed to be serving that the police can be trusted.

My God.

The question I asked was about the MPD.

I'm so sorry if I confused you by discussing statistics instead of "feels likes."

No one is claiming that the MPD has an endemic issue with officers killing citizens. You're trying to prove wrong a statement that no one is making and then yelling at everyone for not embracing your reasoning.

I do agree with you that in general, the country would be better off if folks researched more and screamed less. I have believed for the last 4 years that we would not have Dumbfuck In Charge if more people researched the stupid ass reasonings they used to discredit Clinton.

I'm not trying to "prove" a fucking thing.

I asked a question:

Is it your contention, then, that the Police Department of the city of Minneapolis is in the habit of using excessive force against and killing black men? That this is endemic behavior among police in Minneapolis

It's that simple. I. Asked. A. Fucking. Question.

You've responded with a series of grand societal statements based on your feelings.

[twocoach]

My God.

The question I asked was about the MPD.

I'm so sorry if I confused you by discussing statistics instead of "feels likes."

No one is claiming that the MPD has an endemic issue with officers killing citizens. You're trying to prove wrong a statement that no one is making and then yelling at everyone for not embracing your reasoning.

I do agree with you that in general, the country would be better off if folks researched more and screamed less. I have believed for the last 4 years that we would not have Dumbfuck In Charge if more people researched the stupid ass reasonings they used to discredit Clinton.

I'm not trying to "prove" a fucking thing.

I asked a question:

Is it your contention, then, that the Police Department of the city of Minneapolis is in the habit of using excessive force against and killing black men? That this is endemic behavior among police in Minneapolis

It's that simple. I. Asked. A. Fucking. Question.

You've responded with a series of grand societal statements based on your feelings.

I do not believe that it is possible to answer that question accurately without an intimate knowledge of the Minneapolis police force. You can try to gleam some sort of meaning out of whatever selected statistics are made available to you, assuming that those statistics are free from bias and corruption and are a true representation of the situation but I don't feel comfortable making those assumptions. It would be like forming an opinion of the Chinese government's handling of the outbreak of COVID-19 using the statistics provided by the Chinese government.

[DCHawk1]

i wonder how much of the difficulty associated with getting rid of bad eggs has to do with unions, vs individual departments and the like

i could be wrong, but it seems a little lazy to just blame the big bad unions

Also a little lazy not to inform oneself about police unions and to go with a "seems like" instead.

But then no one "blamed" the unions. There's a difference between blaming them and stating that they're a big part of the problem.

what’s you’re guesstament on the proportion of blame?

-unions
-unions/politicians
-bureaucracy of individual departments
-hiring practices of individual departments

Also worth discussing qualified immunity and its contribution to this mess.

[TDub]

Also a little lazy not to inform oneself about police unions and to go with a "seems like" instead.

But then no one "blamed" the unions. There's a difference between blaming them and stating that they're a big part of the problem.

what’s you’re guesstament on the proportion of blame?

-unions
-unions/politicians
-bureaucracy of individual departments
-hiring practices of individual departments

Also worth discussing qualified immunity and its contribution to this mess.

How about the overreach of government and government funded forces? Its been an issue for quite some time and has slowly been growing over time and over all administrations


Its also interesting to see people cheer the use of the national guard to maintain order during the lockdown and jeer the use of the national guard to maintain order during a protest.

Less federal control. More individual responsibility. Less police control,more individual responsibility. Less government funding, more individual responsibility.