George Floyd and the Ensuing Protests

[PhDhawk]

There's much that he says that is worth hearing, but this stuck out:

"Yeah, but what do you get from NOT looting Target?"

That's...uh...nuts. A moral code is a moral code whether "the leaders" are moral or not. If you allow your moral behavior to be defined by the behavior of the ruling class, then you will never, ever have anything approaching civil society -- because you'll never, ever have a non-corrupt ruling class.

Also, he misunderstands the American interpretation of the social contract.

I think he makes a good point in that it's important to understand WHY that's happening. Empathy is a big part of the path forward.

But, I agree with you in that what Noah is missing, is that he thinks NOT looting Target won't get anything done. I think that what made the acts of people like Gandhi, MLK, Nelson Mandella, Jackie Robinson, etc. so inspirational and so great and so lasting was that they stood up to injustice without letting their anger turn destructive. They didn't stoop to the level of the people that they were fighting against.

Martin Luther King worked peacefully for civil rights for more than a decade.

The Civil Rights Act of 1968 didn't get signed until after King was assassinated and the ensuing riots all over America.

So what "accomplished" more, the decade+ of peaceful protests or the seven weeks of riots?

The peaceful protests did more and have a lasting legacy.

The civil rights act of 1964 was much broader and happened during King's lifetime, same with the voting rights act in 1965. The 1968 civil rights act was introduced and passed by the house in 1967. It was held up in the Senate until after MLK's assassination.

So, I'd say the peaceful protests "accomplished" more.

[ousdahl]

(this discussion spills over from the DC Socks thread but figure it belongs over here)

how telling is it that psych, and his friend, even have to ask if DJT still sucks?

fwiw I might actually be impressed with Trump if he came out with some sincere message about unity and equality, but until then...

and lemme guess: even if Trump did that, I suppose I may still be faulted for perceiving it as insincere. But how sincere would it really be if Trump were to awkwardly stumble through some teleprompter message about unity, then right after the address, get right back to tweeting his usual divisive bullshit?

[ousdahl]

nm, sorry psych, didn't know you were joking.

now let's all have a laugh!

[twocoach]

I think he makes a good point in that it's important to understand WHY that's happening. Empathy is a big part of the path forward.

But, I agree with you in that what Noah is missing, is that he thinks NOT looting Target won't get anything done. I think that what made the acts of people like Gandhi, MLK, Nelson Mandella, Jackie Robinson, etc. so inspirational and so great and so lasting was that they stood up to injustice without letting their anger turn destructive. They didn't stoop to the level of the people that they were fighting against.

Martin Luther King worked peacefully for civil rights for more than a decade.

The Civil Rights Act of 1968 didn't get signed until after King was assassinated and the ensuing riots all over America.

So what "accomplished" more, the decade+ of peaceful protests or the seven weeks of riots?

The peaceful protests did more and have a lasting legacy.

The civil rights act of 1964 was much broader and happened during King's lifetime, same with the voting rights act in 1965. The 1968 civil rights act was introduced and passed by the house in 1967. It was held up in the Senate until after MLK's assassination.

So, I'd say the peaceful protests "accomplished" more.

Good. Then I hope that something gets accomplished out of these protests. With the state of this nation, I have my doubts if enough people want to see changes.

[twocoach]

(this discussion spills over from the DC Socks thread but figure it belongs over here)

how telling is it that psych, and his friend, even have to ask if DJT still sucks?

fwiw I might actually be impressed with Trump if he came out with some sincere message about unity and equality, but until then...

and lemme guess: even if Trump did that, I suppose I may still be faulted for perceiving it as insincere. But how sincere would it really be if Trump were to awkwardly stumble through some teleprompter message about unity, then right after the address, get right back to tweeting his usual divisive bullshit?

Trump can't win if unity and equality exist and winning is all he cares about in regards to this. It would be impossible for him to make a sincere statement about what is going on because he is only mad that it is affecting his reelection campaign.

[PhDhawk]

Martin Luther King worked peacefully for civil rights for more than a decade.

The Civil Rights Act of 1968 didn't get signed until after King was assassinated and the ensuing riots all over America.

So what "accomplished" more, the decade+ of peaceful protests or the seven weeks of riots?

The peaceful protests did more and have a lasting legacy.

The civil rights act of 1964 was much broader and happened during King's lifetime, same with the voting rights act in 1965. The 1968 civil rights act was introduced and passed by the house in 1967. It was held up in the Senate until after MLK's assassination.

So, I'd say the peaceful protests "accomplished" more.

Good. Then I hope that something gets accomplished out of these protests. With the state of this nation, I have my doubts if enough people want to see changes.

The rioting and the looting certainly doesn't help that cause at all.

[ousdahl]

try not to think of it as, "it's horrible that another unarmed black man was killed, but all this rioting and looting has to stop."

when instead we need to think of it as, "it's horrible that there's rioting and looting, but all this killing unarmed black men has to stop."

[ousdahl]

and I don't want to condone rioting and looting in itself, but I'm cautiously optimistic it could be a net positive change in the macro.

I mean, protests are happening in all 50 states.

when was the last time all 50 states did something together?

[PhDhawk]

and I don't want to condone rioting and looting in itself, but I'm cautiously optimistic it could be a net positive change in the macro.

I mean, protests are happening in all 50 states.

when was the last time all 50 states did something together?

For the past two months when we tried as a country to limit the spread of SARS-CoV-2.

1,134 people died yesterday from Covid 19 in the US. Another ~22,000 new cases in spite of the fact that many testing centers were closed by the riots.

I agree with everything you posted. But, for me, the thought that is coming to mind the most, is that 300 million American made sacrifices for two months, 108,000 died, countless more suffered morbidities, 40 million Americans are unemployed and countless more underemployed, etc, etc, and all those efforts and all those sacrifices may be completely negated by these large social gatherings. I don't think it's worth it. And the non-violent protests, which I'd normally support, often turn to violence...so then you have a large public gathering, that's a net negative anyway.

I want to improve law enforcement in this country, I'd love to see racism eradicated.

But keep in mind, who are the groups most impacted by Covid19, it has disproportionately affected POC. And the most vulnerable are elderly and immunocompromised of every race.

Gandhi said, “A Nation's Greatness Is Measured By How It Treats Its Weakest Members”. I'd argue we aren't doing so great right now.

[ousdahl]

and I agree with everything you posted.

it's particularly unfortunate that the latest flareup of racial tensions in Merica coincides with a pandemic, and the protests effectively negate any value of social distancing.

but, even if the protests negate social distancing, let's not let the pandemic negate the push for equality.

and bear in mind what all prompted this: a cop senselessly murdering an unarmed, detained black man, on video, again; and though anyone else would have been promptly arrested for it, justice was delayed, maybe even absent, again.

and again, I really do think we could have mitigated the riots if arrests were announced no later than the release of the video. The narrative would have been totally different. "...but this time, justice was promptly administered." But yet again, another person of color killed by cops, another cop walking free (at least for the rest of the week). And again, the nation was just kinda left in limbo.

you think Chauvin was concerned about social distancing when he put his knee on Floyd's neck for 9 minutes?

I can only hope you were as concerned about social gatherings during a pandemic when they protested against precautions to prevent spread of the pandemic, instead of protesting against inequality.

[PhDhawk]

and I agree with everything you posted.

it's particularly unfortunate that the latest flareup of racial tensions in Merica coincides with a pandemic, and the protests effectively negate any value of social distancing.

but, even if the protests negate social distancing, let's not let the pandemic negate the push for equality.

and bear in mind what all prompted this: a cop senselessly murdering an unarmed, detained black man, on video, again; and though anyone else would have been promptly arrested for it, justice was delayed, maybe even absent, again.

and again, I really do think we could have mitigated the riots if arrests were announced no later than the release of the video. The narrative would have been totally different. "...but this time, justice was promptly administered." But yet again, another person of color killed by cops, another cop walking free (at least for the rest of the week). And again, the nation was just kinda left in limbo.

you think Chauvin was concerned about social distancing when he put his knee on Floyd's neck for 9 minutes?

I can only hope you were as concerned about social gatherings during a pandemic when they protested against precautions to prevent spread of the pandemic, instead of protesting against inequality.

To the first bolded statement. I agree. I'd support peaceful protests that don't involve large gatherings of people. I don't have an answer to what those are, there have been a few examples of social distancing, but not many. There are online approaches, but a lot of those have been poo-pooed by people who are actively involved in the cause.

To the second, I was one of the most vocal critics of the protests. Even those...had they been about 20% unemployment, or about reasonable lifting of restrictions, I'd have supported the effort but been critical of the public gatherings as the method.

I've been consistent on my take on this the entire time. I might be one of the only ones. I don't think we need masses of people, many of whom travel to ge there, to be gathering in close proximity for prolonged periods of time, and chanting and yelling and doing other things that create aerosols that may house the virus.

I think it's become largely popular among those who were most critical of armed protests about stay at home orders to be supportive of the current protests. I think that's hypocritical, and I'm not entirely sure why that is. I think it's partially motivated by not wanting to be accused of racism. But maybe there are other more noble reasons...or maybe the virus will take the summer off, in which case I'll STFU about it.

[ousdahl]

yeah, it is irresponsible to disregard the precautions, whether it be for a protest, a Lake of the Ozarks party, or whatever. Mericans have been way too lax about the precautions either way.

(confession time! I personally haven't attended any protests in-person, mostly just cuz I'm still being so cautious about social distancing.)*

and though I'm concerned about the disregard for precautions, I also believe the protestors are aware of the risks, and maybe are taking a calculated risk, cuz they believe the fight for equality is more important than even the pandemic.

In a certain limited way, I respect that - more so than I respect some protest against the precautions themselves, or just cuz you wanna go to Party Cove for Memorial Day.

but yeah, there's a pandemic going on, let's try not to spread it for any reason.

[ousdahl]

*protest sign ideas!

- PEACE (or just a peace sign)
- EQUALITY
- liberty and justice for all
- #WeAllFromAfrica
- 85 is my wingman

[Deleted User 141]

nm, sorry psych, didn't know you were joking.

now let's all have a laugh!

I read this as Bob Schumm would say ‘let’s have a fat tire draft.... (and added my own right now) to finish out the thought.

[HouseDivided]

nm, sorry psych, didn't know you were joking.

now let's all have a laugh!

OuTRagE! #everythingistrumpsfault #bitchingsolveseverything

[Deleted User 141]

Again, it’s gross. America is gross right now.

Agree with PhD’s worries.

Agree sweeping inherit changes need to be made to mentality of police forces nationwide (southern, northern, and other).

Sickened when reading about how trios is latest distraction to control.

Tribalism has led to cynicism which is leading us down a potential rabbit hole of people that can influence change in some real capacity don’t start meeting somewhere off of each other’s own mountain top.

[Deleted User 141]

Again, it’s gross. America is gross right now.

Agree with PhD’s worries.

Agree sweeping inherit changes need to be made to mentality of police forces nationwide (southern, northern, and other).

Sickened when reading about how trios is latest distraction to control.

Tribalism has led to cynicism which is leading us down a potential rabbit hole if people that can influence change in some real capacity don’t start meeting somewhere off of each other’s own mountain top.

[chiknbut]

Every single word.

[PhDhawk]

Seeing Chauvin's charge will be elevated to 2nd degree murder and the other three officers will be charged with aiding and abetting.

https://www.startribune.com/ellison-exp ... 570984872/

[twocoach]

The peaceful protests did more and have a lasting legacy.

The civil rights act of 1964 was much broader and happened during King's lifetime, same with the voting rights act in 1965. The 1968 civil rights act was introduced and passed by the house in 1967. It was held up in the Senate until after MLK's assassination.

So, I'd say the peaceful protests "accomplished" more.

Good. Then I hope that something gets accomplished out of these protests. With the state of this nation, I have my doubts if enough people want to see changes.

The rioting and the looting certainly doesn't help that cause at all.

Folks who allow themselves to be distracted by HOW 0.1% of the protesters are protesting are just looking for an excuse to ignore WHY 99.9% of the protesters are protesting.