Kenosha

[Leawood]

Completely out of hand.

[Deleted User 289]

People can and will debate if he should have been shot.
I'm just going to say, I don't really give a damn what color his skin is.
I watched the video. Supposedly he HAD been tasered. He "broke" away. 100% disrespected police orders. Guns were drawn, he was warned, he kept walking away, went to his vehicle, seemingly REACHED for something inside, he got shot by a cop. Multiple times.

People in Kenosha want to hit cops with bricks (as they did), destroy property (as they did), and "act out", so be it but perhaps they should realize that it would have been as simple as Jacob Blake not "resisting" and NONE of this would have happened and continue to be happening - in Kenosha last night.

[jfish26]

"I don't really give a damn what color his skin is," is a self-soothing, ignorant-or-misleading sleight of hand (not unlike "all lives matter").

It's something no one should get to say until the color of someone's skin actually does not make a difference in what happens to them at the hands of police.

That's not where we're at.

What I truly do not give a damn about is what "people in Kenosha" were doing separately. It's exceedingly stupid to say that what happened to this guy was any less horrible based on what other "people in Kenosha" were doing separately.

And if the response is that the cops were on edge (and more likely to use force) because of what "other people in Kenosha" were doing...then I'd suggest that supports a complete reevaluation of the sort of people we entrust with authority and weapons.

[Deleted User 289]

"I don't really give a damn what color his skin is," is a self-soothing, ignorant-or-misleading sleight of hand (not unlike "all lives matter").

It's something no one should get to say until the color of someone's skin actually does not make a difference in what happens to them at the hands of police.

That's not where we're at.

What I truly do not give a damn about is what "people in Kenosha" were doing separately. It's exceedingly stupid to say that what happened to this guy was any less horrible based on what other "people in Kenosha" were doing separately.

And if the response is that the cops were on edge (and more likely to use force) because of what "other people in Kenosha" were doing...then I'd suggest that supports a complete reevaluation of the sort of people we entrust with authority and weapons.

I do give a damn about skin color and the difference/s in how people are treated based on their skin color.
The reason I said I don't give a damn what color his skin is/was in this scenario is because (right or wrong), I feel if he was White in the same exact scenario, I believe the cop who shot him would not have made the decision differently.
Of course I very well could be wrong. It's just what I believe.
NONE of us know if he was shot simply because of the color of his skin. Well, maybe the cop who shot him does.

On a side note - Jacob Blakes mother has "asked" everyone to please remain peaceful.
In other words, those who are not "retaining peaceful" are disrespecting her.

I may get attacked for bringing this up but let's be brutally honest here. Jacob Blake was no saint. Doesn't mean he had to be (or should have been) shot but he's had a poor history in terms of obeying the law.
This time it may end up costing him his life.

According to Wisconsin Circuit Court Access online records, a Jacob S. Blake, same age and with an address in the same exact block where the shooting occurred, had a warrant issued for him on July 7 on pending accusations of misdemeanor criminal trespass to a dwelling with domestic abuse as a modifier; felony third-degree sexual assault with domestic abuse as a modifier; and misdemeanor disorderly conduct with domestic abuse as a modifier. A support action was dismissed, and the only other case that comes up is for not having a driver’s license.

This doesn't mean it's the same person - but it doesn't mean it's not......
A 2015 story in Racine Eye described how “Racine police say K9 Dozer had to help officers take a man into custody when the man refused to go quietly into custody after he pulled a gun at a local bar.” The man was described as Jacob Blake, 24, of Racine, which makes him the same age as the man shot by police on August 23. The Racine Eye story says he was charged with “one felony count of resisting arrest causing a soft tissue injury to a police officer and one misdemeanor count each of carrying a concealed weapon, carrying a firearm while intoxicated, endangering safety-use of a dangerous weapon, and disorderly conduct.” Those charges don’t show up on the circuit court website though.
That story further alleges, “Blake and two women were at the Brass Monkey tavern, 1436 Junction Avenue, Saturday when Blake got into an argument with another patron and pulled a black handgun. Blake pointed the gun at the other man, and the magazine fell to the floor. The bartender told Blake to leave, and he did but then pointed the gun through the window at patrons inside the bar before walking south on Junction Avenue.”
Police stopped Blake in a “high risk traffic stop” but he “exited the SUV and started walking toward officers and ignored commands to get down on the ground,” the story says. That’s when officers forced him to the ground and used a K9 when he kept resisting, the story adds.

https://heavy.com/news/2020/08/jacob-blake/

[ousdahl]

Just saw the video. Yeah, he def shouldn't have walked away from cops and tried to get in/get something in the car.

but it's kinda surreal, cuz he does it so casually.

even more surreal is how the cops even more casually SHOOT HIM REPEATEDLY IN THE BACK.

[jfish26]

Just saw the video. Yeah, he def shouldn't have walked away from cops and tried to get in/get something in the car.

but it's kinda surreal, cuz he does it so casually.

even more surreal is how the cops even more casually SHOOT HIM REPEATEDLY IN THE BACK.

Unfortunately, and no one that matters can say this out loud...there are lots of reasons why leaving people alive is problematic.

[ousdahl]

surely, cops will say they thought he was going for a weapon, thus invoking the "fear for my life" defense, right?

Is there any legal threshold for such a defense? Are there any elements to meet, such as, confirm he was going for a weapon?

What if the guy was just going to get his driver's license?

[jfish26]

It doesn't make sense to require there to be a weapon. That is not fair to officers.

Unfortunately, this really isn't an issue that can be solved with laws and such. It's a matter of an entire overhaul of the culture of policing, and how officers are trained.

[sdoyel]

It’s sickening.

[ousdahl]

It doesn't make sense to require there to be a weapon. That is not fair to officers.

Unfortunately, this really isn't an issue that can be solved with laws and such. It's a matter of an entire overhaul of the culture of policing, and how officers are trained.

yeah, that's true.

I suppose I'm just hoping for some sort of context. If the dude just started walking back to his car, that's a lot different than if the dude started walking back after saying, "fine, I"ll go look for the damn proof of insurance." (not saying that's what happened here)

but yeah, policing needs an overhaul. Training needs an overhaul. Cops need to be the ones to de-escalate, not the ones to shoot dudes in the back.

Communities need to change the way they perceive and respond to police too, but a lot of that is chicken and egg.

[jfish26]

It doesn't make sense to require there to be a weapon. That is not fair to officers.

Unfortunately, this really isn't an issue that can be solved with laws and such. It's a matter of an entire overhaul of the culture of policing, and how officers are trained.

yeah, that's true.

I suppose I'm just hoping for some sort of context. If the dude just started walking back to his car, that's a lot different than if the dude started walking back after saying, "fine, I"ll go look for the damn proof of insurance." (not saying that's what happened here)

but yeah, policing needs an overhaul. Training needs an overhaul. Cops need to be the ones to de-escalate, not the ones to shoot dudes in the back.

Communities need to change the way they perceive and respond to police too, but a lot of that is chicken and egg.

I'll say this...everyone - everyone - needs to be taught, in Driver's Ed or something, how to handle yourself in the case of a traffic stop.

Hands at 10 and 2 from the moment you're stopped until specifically directed to move them. Tell the officer what you're doing (e.g., "I'm going to reach for my glove box to get my registration.")

These simple things are riskless to you, and serve to deescalate any tension.

[ousdahl]

oh for sure.

but then again, chicken and egg.

Ask Philando Castile how "tell the officer what you're doing" works out.

[ousdahl]

And, just generally speaking, I think it should be up to the officer/s to deescalate a situation, more so than the civilians, but alas.

[japhy]

Just saw the video. Yeah, he def shouldn't have walked away from cops and tried to get in/get something in the car.

but it's kinda surreal, cuz he does it so casually.

even more surreal is how the cops even more casually SHOOT HIM REPEATEDLY IN THE BACK.

Unfortunately, and no one that matters can say this out loud...there are lots of reasons why leaving people alive is problematic.

My grandfather was a cop in the City of Chicago for years and later a detective for Cook County. He lived on the South Side around 111th and Western. When we visited we would take Cottage Grove downtown from 95th Street. If you never drove down Cottage Groove in the 1970's or 80's, parts of the strip looked like Europe after WWII, it was still a crumbled burned out heap from the riots in the late 60's. There was a scam that was common at the time to dart out from between parked cars and claim to have been hit. My grandfather told us to never stop the car if we heard people screaming about being hit or trying to waive us down. He said to drive to 95th and head west to Evergreen Plaza and call the cops from there. He said no one was going to questions us about leaving the scene of an "accident". He also told us that if someone ran out in front of us and we did hit them, to back up and run over them again to make sure they were dead. He sorta of smirked when he said this, but I think he meant it. He had a drawer of "extra" guns in his desk at home. These weren't his official issue weapons, these were just miscellaneous raggedy assed handguns that he carried in his car in case he need to drop them somewhere. And yes, every part of his justifications for this shit was race based. He may have been one of the most malignantly racist people I have ever known. There is at least one ugly story that is part of family lore. After he retired and left the City for a elder care home in Iowa, the FBI used to make regular visits there to ask questions about his activities and those of his fellow officers. "I am an old man, my memory is not so good, I don't remember anything". The irony here being that he was an interrogator for Cook County.

There are plenty of good reasons why only white people trust the Chicago police.

[jfish26]

It's also generally much less costly to lose/settle a wrongful death lawsuit, as compared with one where the victim lives.

[twocoach]

People can and will debate if he should have been shot.
I'm just going to say, I don't really give a damn what color his skin is.
I watched the video. Supposedly he HAD been tasered. He "broke" away. 100% disrespected police orders. Guns were drawn, he was warned, he kept walking away, went to his vehicle, seemingly REACHED for something inside, he got shot by a cop. Multiple times.

People in Kenosha want to hit cops with bricks (as they did), destroy property (as they did), and "act out", so be it but perhaps they should realize that it would have been as simple as Jacob Blake not "resisting" and NONE of this would have happened and continue to be happening - in Kenosha last night.

It also wouldn't have happened if the half dozen officers physically restrained him vs. shooting him seven times.

[Deleted User 89]

or tased him?

or shot him with a beanbag round?

heard a report this morning that he was just trying to break up a fight

[Deleted User 289]

People can and will debate if he should have been shot.
I'm just going to say, I don't really give a damn what color his skin is.
I watched the video. Supposedly he HAD been tasered. He "broke" away. 100% disrespected police orders. Guns were drawn, he was warned, he kept walking away, went to his vehicle, seemingly REACHED for something inside, he got shot by a cop. Multiple times.

People in Kenosha want to hit cops with bricks (as they did), destroy property (as they did), and "act out", so be it but perhaps they should realize that it would have been as simple as Jacob Blake not "resisting" and NONE of this would have happened and continue to be happening - in Kenosha last night.

It also wouldn't have happened if the half dozen officers physically restrained him vs. shooting him seven times.

Exactly! But they didn't restrain him. Instead he "broke away" from them, he disobeyed their order/s, and he was shot. Sucks for all involved but no matter who we want to say is primarily at fault for his being shot, let's not JUST blame the cops for this - or JUST blame Blake.
Seems there is a lot of fault to go around.

[Deleted User 289]

or tased him?

or shot him with a beanbag round?

heard a report this morning that he was just trying to break up a fight

Allegedly they did tase him earlier. If so, seems it did little to no good.

I think in hindsight all involved would have preferred if he was "shot" by a "beanbag" round (or multiple rounds) but I don't know if that was an option. I am under the belief that not all cops have "beanbag" rounds.

I heard the same thing - that he was just trying to break up a fight. 100% admirable if true.
Not admirable that when the police arrived he disobeyed them. Continuously.
Just as it's not admirable that the cop felt the need to shoot him - and then shot him repeatedly.

[Deleted User 289]

Just saw the video. Yeah, he def shouldn't have walked away from cops and tried to get in/get something in the car.

but it's kinda surreal, cuz he does it so casually.

even more surreal is how the cops even more casually SHOOT HIM REPEATEDLY IN THE BACK.

Unfortunately, and no one that matters can say this out loud...there are lots of reasons why leaving people alive is problematic.

My grandfather was a cop in the City of Chicago for years and later a detective for Cook County. He lived on the South Side around 111th and Western. When we visited we would take Cottage Grove downtown from 95th Street. If you never drove down Cottage Groove in the 1970's or 80's, parts of the strip looked like Europe after WWII, it was still a crumbled burned out heap from the riots in the late 60's. There was a scam that was common at the time to dart out from between parked cars and claim to have been hit. My grandfather told us to never stop the car if we heard people screaming about being hit or trying to waive us down. He said to drive to 95th and head west to Evergreen Plaza and call the cops from there. He said no one was going to questions us about leaving the scene of an "accident". He also told us that if someone ran out in front of us and we did hit them, to back up and run over them again to make sure they were dead. He sorta of smirked when he said this, but I think he meant it. He had a drawer of "extra" guns in his desk at home. These weren't his official issue weapons, these were just miscellaneous raggedy assed handguns that he carried in his car in case he need to drop them somewhere. And yes, every part of his justifications for this shit was race based. He may have been one of the most malignantly racist people I have ever known. There is at least one ugly story that is part of family lore. After he retired and left the City for a elder care home in Iowa, the FBI used to make regular visits there to ask questions about his activities and those of his fellow officers. "I am an old man, my memory is not so good, I don't remember anything". The irony here being that he was an interrogator for Cook County.

There are plenty of good reasons why only white people trust the Chicago police.

As a white person, I have had my share of not pleasant experiences with the Chicago Police.
As a matter of fact, I have been "profiled" as a WHITE person.

I do truly believe the majority of Chicago Cops are good people with good intentions.
BUT..... There are way too many Chicago Cops who are NOT good people and have BAD intentions.
I believe it's going to get worse before it gets better. A LOT of the GOOD Cops are leaving the force - and understandably so. Who replaces them? That's where it's going to get ugly but a positive way to look at it MAY be that the new/rookie Cops (who will obviously be inexperienced) might also not be as "jaded" and be taught new methods that the older Cops choose to ignore and prefer the "old school" methods.

Huge issue I see right now is that almost everyone has instant access to a camera and can very easily sway people with THEIR narratives of police situations on social media outlets.
That's not going to change unless social media outlets put a ban on it - but that would open up a whole different can of worms.