When America used to be great

[RussianHawk]

This is so nuanced.

I think much of the idea of “used to be” is tied to bigotry. The MAGA crowd is overwhelmingly white Christian men who believe America was/is/should be a white Christian nation. They are upset about their perception of Mexicans taking jobs they feel entitled to, blacks kneeling about police brutality, Muslims trying to not be typecast as terrorists, and women wanting to pursue professions and positions of power with equal pay to boot.

The larger push for social justice has been countered with their own claims of oppression of the white Christian man by the libtards.

Another angle is the economic one: many blue collar whites frame their manufacturing and coal jobs as some traditional way of life, and think they’re entitled to maintain it. When the free market phases those jobs out*, instead of picking themselves up and pursuing some other living, they sit around feeling sorry for themselves and blaming Obama.

Even if it’s not framed as bigotry, they perceive some rosy Norman Rockwell painting of a past that they think has been tainted by modern influences. Political correctness is vilified, as is any sense of progress that might come to their “way of life.”

A big problem is media, with 24-hour “news” cycles competing for ratings by seeing which pundit can get the most OuTrAgEd! in prime time. What used to be a vanilla reporting of the evening news is a blood-boiling moral mandate against the other side.

*I hesitate to accept Trump or the MAGAs as an actual populist movement, as I think populism should appeal to he popular masses, not just one butthurt demographic. If we DO ever see a populist movement, I think it’ll be overwhelmingly economic, and average joes from all demographics agree upon economic equality.

Shoot, sorry. Long exhausting day at work. I shoulda just ranted in the tourist thread.

Most of this is just Hofstadter's bullshit regurgitated for a new generation. It was lazy and chronologically implausible analysis a half century ago, and the contemporary version is even less serious and empirically sound.

The irony is that the Christian traditionalists and many of the New Left radicals both saw the major issue clearly 50 years ago, i.e. destructive materialism, and both failed miserably in their own way to prevent its ascendance.

For a variety of reasons, both the political Left and the Right are trapped in a pattern of materialist-nihilism. And since nothing today is permitted to be non-political, that means that everything is geared toward the acquisition of shit and nothing more.

Social science isn't really a science you can always talk in colloquial to make your point provide a view point.

[DCHawk1]

"Christian traditionalists," DC?

Are you talking about those horrible, evil old men that head up your church in the U.S.?

Not specifically, but certainly they're a part of that group.

[DCHawk1]

This is so nuanced.

I think much of the idea of “used to be” is tied to bigotry. The MAGA crowd is overwhelmingly white Christian men who believe America was/is/should be a white Christian nation. They are upset about their perception of Mexicans taking jobs they feel entitled to, blacks kneeling about police brutality, Muslims trying to not be typecast as terrorists, and women wanting to pursue professions and positions of power with equal pay to boot.

The larger push for social justice has been countered with their own claims of oppression of the white Christian man by the libtards.

Another angle is the economic one: many blue collar whites frame their manufacturing and coal jobs as some traditional way of life, and think they’re entitled to maintain it. When the free market phases those jobs out*, instead of picking themselves up and pursuing some other living, they sit around feeling sorry for themselves and blaming Obama.

Even if it’s not framed as bigotry, they perceive some rosy Norman Rockwell painting of a past that they think has been tainted by modern influences. Political correctness is vilified, as is any sense of progress that might come to their “way of life.”

A big problem is media, with 24-hour “news” cycles competing for ratings by seeing which pundit can get the most OuTrAgEd! in prime time. What used to be a vanilla reporting of the evening news is a blood-boiling moral mandate against the other side.

*I hesitate to accept Trump or the MAGAs as an actual populist movement, as I think populism should appeal to he popular masses, not just one butthurt demographic. If we DO ever see a populist movement, I think it’ll be overwhelmingly economic, and average joes from all demographics agree upon economic equality.

Shoot, sorry. Long exhausting day at work. I shoulda just ranted in the tourist thread.

Most of this is just Hofstadter's bullshit regurgitated for a new generation. It was lazy and chronologically implausible analysis a half century ago, and the contemporary version is even less serious and empirically sound.

The irony is that the Christian traditionalists and many of the New Left radicals both saw the major issue clearly 50 years ago, i.e. destructive materialism, and both failed miserably in their own way to prevent its ascendance.

For a variety of reasons, both the political Left and the Right are trapped in a pattern of materialist-nihilism. And since nothing today is permitted to be non-political, that means that everything is geared toward the acquisition of shit and nothing more.

Social science isn't really a science

Not even close -- a point I try very hard to make all the time.

[DCHawk1]

DC, see my other long post on this thread. Basically, I think I attribute all the lazy Americans who lack gumption, grit, and integrity to a slow creep of lowlife media and subsequent poor parenting.

Where are the strong parents? Where are the statesmen (gender neutral)?

Why are so many just walking billboards with their latest attire and gadgets? Why are they so eager to get more likes? Why do they devote more of themselves to looking good than being good? Why is a fancy vacation/vehicle/wedding more important than a good public education? The food they don’t know how to prepare is scientifically concocted with the optimal proportions of grease, salt, and sugar; but they don’t know any better. They spend vast portions of their day using apps and games scientifically concocted with the optimal proportions of bling, colors, sound, and rewards to keep them there (buying, clicking, viewing ads, generating content for others to make money on), but they can’t control themselves. They don’t know the system is rigged to make them addicted.

Show me the garages that have room to actually park cars in. Show me the families where the kids do chores. Show me the communities groups whereby the neighbors know each other. Show me a home where the parents are not just as short-sighted and childish as the children. Those are the last bastions of a great society. That is where you will find people with an internal sense of worth. That is where people know the value of a dollar and the value of an hour. That is where people develop having respect for their family, for public spaces, and for the common good. That is where it is learned that work is something to be proud of rather than scoffed at.

I get and appreciate what you're saying. And for the most part, I disagree very little.

Still, I don't think that the conditions you name -- the bad parenting, etc. -- simple materialized out of nothing. They too have causes.

[Deleted User 183]

America = Very well may be the most overrated country in the world.
Don't think so? Then please.......
Tell me how you feel about people who go to church, school, a club, a concert, and get shot.
Tell me how you feel about our health care system.
Tell me how you feel about the average American's work/life balance.
Tell me how you feel about racism.
Tell me how you feel about inner-city public schools and the rest of our "education system".
Tell me how you feel about all the people who are on prescriptions drugs and how the drug manufactures are criminals.
Tell me how you feel about all the people who abuse and/or are addicted to "illegal" drugs and who are alcoholics.
Tell me how you feel about materialism.
Tell me how you feel about the multitudes of people who are depressed.
Tell me how you feel about the divorce rate.
Tell me how you feel about bullying.
Tell me how you feel about the 1%ers vs. those living in poverty.
Tell me how you feel about your taxes.
Tell me how you feel about obesity.
Tell me how you feel in terms of people caring about the environment.
Tell me how you feel about our infrastructure.
Tell me how you feel about your privacy protection.
Tell me how you feel about crime.
Tell me how you feel about our obsession with status and celebrities.
Tell me how you feel about our clergymen/s morals.
Tell me how you feel about our politicians.
Tell me how you feel about the lack of social interaction - in person.
Tell me how you feel about our manufacturing.
Tell me how you feel about credit debt.
I could go on and on and on and on and ask you how you feel about other things but I'll quit here for now.

[DCHawk1]

Move.

[Deleted User 183]

That's a simpleton's response. "Move".
It's as if you're implying I and anyone else who finds fault/s in this country should either have to deal with what's broken/damaged - or leave because there is no hope for this country and it is what it is.
Yep, that's it! I should give up and quit and and just say this country sucks and will always suck and there is no hope for the future so I should move.
Or.... I could choose to stay and hope by the grace of God and because people actually do give a fuck about the things I mentioned and want better things for this country - maybe some positive changes will occur.

[DCHawk1]

Good Lord.

Get a grip.

You're a bitch(er). You bitch about everything that's wrong with America, offer exactly zero answers, and acknowledge none of the positives. I know being the most negative person in the room (ANY room) is your shtick, but if you just want to bitch and only see the worst in everything, then your decision is simple.

Or maybe just sit around and "hope" that someone else will do something.

[Geezer]

At least you have your Man Donald making America great again.

[DCHawk1]

At least you have your Man Donald making America great again.

meh

Unless Trump can go back in time and stop McKinley's assassination, he can't make America great again.

[Mjl]

DC, see my other long post on this thread. Basically, I think I attribute all the lazy Americans who lack gumption, grit, and integrity to a slow creep of lowlife media and subsequent poor parenting.

Where are the strong parents? Where are the statesmen (gender neutral)?

Why are so many just walking billboards with their latest attire and gadgets? Why are they so eager to get more likes? Why do they devote more of themselves to looking good than being good? Why is a fancy vacation/vehicle/wedding more important than a good public education? The food they don’t know how to prepare is scientifically concocted with the optimal proportions of grease, salt, and sugar; but they don’t know any better. They spend vast portions of their day using apps and games scientifically concocted with the optimal proportions of bling, colors, sound, and rewards to keep them there (buying, clicking, viewing ads, generating content for others to make money on), but they can’t control themselves. They don’t know the system is rigged to make them addicted.

Show me the garages that have room to actually park cars in. Show me the families where the kids do chores. Show me the communities groups whereby the neighbors know each other. Show me a home where the parents are not just as short-sighted and childish as the children. Those are the last bastions of a great society. That is where you will find people with an internal sense of worth. That is where people know the value of a dollar and the value of an hour. That is where people develop having respect for their family, for public spaces, and for the common good. That is where it is learned that work is something to be proud of rather than scoffed at.

I get and appreciate what you're saying. And for the most part, I disagree very little.

Still, I don't think that the conditions you name -- the bad parenting, etc. -- simple materialized out of nothing. They too have causes.

Human nature? Technological advancement moving faster than the evolution of the human brain?

[Deleted User 183]

Good Lord.

Get a grip.

You're a bitch(er). You bitch about everything that's wrong with America, offer exactly zero answers, and acknowledge none of the positives. I know being the most negative person in the room (ANY room) is your shtick, but if you just want to bitch and only see the worst in everything, then your decision is simple.

Or maybe just sit around and "hope" that someone else will do something.

I'll respond in to your post in order of what you posted.
Unfortunately I have "a grip" and my "grip" isn't pretending I live in a country that is such a fantastic place to live while ignoring it's problems/issues.
You're right I am "bitching". I shouldn't give a damn? The thread title is "When America used to be great."
I didn't say it currently is or isn't great nor did I say it was or wasn't great at one time.
I said it "very well may be the most overrated country in the world". That's it - and I stick by my feelings.
I choose not to be a person who feels Donald Trump is the solution.
I hardly bitched about "everything" that's wrong with America. There is a whole lot more.
I don't believe you are trying to imply you and I and most others who post on here are supposed to ignore things that affect others and don't affect us directly because we're considered the privileged ones in this country but I do believe you are implying I should try and put the problems/issues on the back burner and instead be a glass half full kind of guy. Sometimes I am - too often I'm not. Guilty as charged.
I don't have answers nor solutions to many if not all of the things I mentioned. I wish I did.
I wasn't aware I was supposed to have them when I made my post.
I posted some examples of problems/issues I and others in this country face and why I feel the country is "overrated". If I was posting about why I felt the country was underrated I could and would make a list of things I feel are wonderful about this country too. There are plenty of them.
Yes, I am often the most negative person on this site when I feel people are ignoring problems and issues that I and others who are not involved in a circle jerk give a fuck about.
You don't know me and how I am off the board/s. I have people who will attest that I am often if not usually the most positive person in the room when I deal people who are going through a lot of shit in their lives - when I'm by choice willingly spending my Monday late afternoons and Tuesday late afternoons with them trying to help and support them.
These are people who are important and matter to me. People less fortunate than I am. People I try and "give back to".
So in regards to your assumption/accusation - I'm hardly always "the most negative person in the room (ANY room)" - and while I hardly do everything I can to help people in this country - I make an effort in ways that I am not going to elaborate on right now.
I don't "just" bitch and "see the worst in everything" but when I choose to give a fuck about things that suck - yes, I bitch. Go ahead and please keep criticizing me - for caring - if it appeases you in terms of finding me to be a flawed person. I have MANY flaws but when I stop caring about myself and others and the problems and issues we face - I'll know it's time for me to be dead.
My decision is not at all simple. There are plenty of brief moments where I feel I would be much better off living in a different country but most of the time I am just fine living in the United States and I actually am grateful and thankful I do.
Whether I choose to "sit around" or get my ass up and do whatever I can, you're God Bless America damn right I am going to "hope" others will do something/s to make this country a better place.
Unfortunately I and/or people I care about are directly affected by the things I mentioned.
It's when people ignore those things and/or stop caring that nothing will get done to improve them.
I choose to care about the issues people in the this country are faced with and living with. Others choose not to really give a damn. Hey, it's a free country. Sort of. People can do whatever they want.
In closing, how do I sincerely feel about "America"? Once again, as I said, it "very well may be the most overrated country in the world".
Doesn't in any way mean I don't overall feel its a great country - or a terrible one.
I feel it's severely flawed in too many ways but it's still a great country. "Overrated" or not.

[DCHawk1]

tl;dc

[Leawood]

To me, America was great when stores, particularly liquor stores, were closed on Sundays. After Mass, the crazy Uncle would tap a pony keg, and the dozens of cousins would play in the yard while the parents would socialize and the 15 year old girls would mete out punishment, giving Moms a break. Food was cold cuts on white bread.

I still try to do that, except by myself.

[twocoach]

America was great back when we had a President who called the troops on the holidays and simply thanked them for their service, encouraged morale and wished them a happy holidays. Instead Trump plays up his fake enemies to stoke fear and look tough and continued his assault on our institutions as he bashed a Supreme Court Justice over the phone to the commanding officer on a ship in Bahrain.

His ridiculous display of authoritarianism is sweeping up the lowest of low hanging fruit but the strengths of our institutions and people will overcome this horrible black stain on the soul of our nation.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/11/22/politics ... index.html

[seahawk]

Kudos to Gutter for spending his time trying to help others on Mondays and Tuesdays.