Would you be on the Jury?

[Deleted User 863]

Public Service Announcement:

Turns out our information this morning continues to be a little incorrect. Regarding the white kid with the knife that we took to Burger King. Well, apparently he didn't have a knife, he actually killed 9 people. Odd because he seems like a good kid, think he just had a bad day.

Also, still a couple unclaimed Caramel Frappe's in the break room.

He did say he had a bad day, which was unbelievably stupid....but did he actually call him a good kid?

Honest question.

[CrimsonNBlue]

Public Service Announcement:

Turns out our information this morning continues to be a little incorrect. Regarding the white kid with the knife that we took to Burger King. Well, apparently he didn't have a knife, he actually killed 9 people. Odd because he seems like a good kid, think he just had a bad day.

Also, still a couple unclaimed Caramel Frappe's in the break room.

Yep. This is the biggest real issue. More or less the same laws everywhere, but (some) cops see a certain amount of people as part of them, and then everyone else as something else. Even something less. Clear back in the 80's, but look up what the Judge said about the white guys that killed Vincent Chin.

It is just statistically true that police stops with white people and minorities turn out different. People are fed up.

[Deleted User 863]

I agree, but I don't think he was joking.

Also, the word "negro" is not per se offensive. There are plenty of other words that are.

How he spelled it and used it is offensive and unacceptable speech for a white person. Just my opinion.

It was unneeded. The spelling. The word. All of it. He could have made his point like an adult.

You're allowed to be offended, and I get it, and ousdahl has been an emotional grasshopper in this thread.

Just saying you've quit this board over the same thing before, and I just don't think mischaracterizing things is doing anything for anyone. Everyone got ousdahl's point.

Fair enough.

[Cascadia]

Public Service Announcement:

Turns out our information this morning continues to be a little incorrect. Regarding the white kid with the knife that we took to Burger King. Well, apparently he didn't have a knife, he actually killed 9 people. Odd because he seems like a good kid, think he just had a bad day.

Also, still a couple unclaimed Caramel Frappe's in the break room.

He did say he had a bad day, which was unbelievably stupid....but did he actually call him a good kid?

Honest question.

That's a combination of multiple incidents. Dylan Woof went to Burger King, Robert Aaron Long was the kid who had a bad day.

[Cascadia]

Public Service Announcement:

Turns out our information this morning continues to be a little incorrect. Regarding the white kid with the knife that we took to Burger King. Well, apparently he didn't have a knife, he actually killed 9 people. Odd because he seems like a good kid, think he just had a bad day.

Also, still a couple unclaimed Caramel Frappe's in the break room.

Yep. This is the biggest real issue. More or less the same laws everywhere, but (some) cops see a certain amount of people as part of them, and then everyone else as something else. Even something less. Clear back in the 80's, but look up what the Judge said about the white guys that killed Vincent Chin.

It is just statistically true that police stops with white people and minorities turn out different. People are fed up.

Exactly, and I think that's ultimately what ousdahl is trying to discuss. But, every time we have a new incident, we have to first determine if the cop was "justified". Because if there is a slimmer of justification then the dead person deserved it.

[pdub]

*140 new posts*

LOL

[CrimsonNBlue]

Public Service Announcement:

Turns out our information this morning continues to be a little incorrect. Regarding the white kid with the knife that we took to Burger King. Well, apparently he didn't have a knife, he actually killed 9 people. Odd because he seems like a good kid, think he just had a bad day.

Also, still a couple unclaimed Caramel Frappe's in the break room.

Yep. This is the biggest real issue. More or less the same laws everywhere, but (some) cops see a certain amount of people as part of them, and then everyone else as something else. Even something less. Clear back in the 80's, but look up what the Judge said about the white guys that killed Vincent Chin.

It is just statistically true that police stops with white people and minorities turn out different. People are fed up.

Exactly, and I think that's ultimately what ousdahl is trying to discuss. But, every time we have a new incident, we have to first determine if the cop was "justified". Because if there is a slimmer of justification then the dead person deserved it.

Yes, it is often that the bad jumps in logic are largely part of the divide.

When something like this happens, I can't help myself but to first look at the legal issues, but I also think it is important to understand them and not overreact when where, something like this, doesn't end up in a charge or conviction. There are legal reasons why it will (likely) not, and there will be anger that I think is counterproductive.

But the overall conversation should stay. Laws and policy are made by humans, and we can change them.

[pdub]

"Yes, it is often that the bad jumps in logic are largely part of the divide."

This.

[Cascadia]

Yes, it is often that the bad jumps in logic are largely part of the divide.

When something like this happens, I can't help myself but to first look at the legal issues, but I also think it is important to understand them and not overreact when where, something like this, doesn't end up in a charge or conviction. There are legal reasons why it will (likely) not, and there will be anger that I think is counterproductive.

But the overall conversation should stay. Laws and policy are made by humans, and we can change them.

Right. I don't think the officer will be (or should be) charged in the death of Ma'Khia Bryant. From a legal perspective I'm presuming (not an expert on law) that his use of deadly force is justified and legal.

What I would like to see happen is for cops to stop fucking killing people when there are ways to deescalate the situation. It's impossible to predict an alternative future, but I think this situation with Ma'Khia Bryant could have easily ended without someone dying.

edit: I'd also like to see the first discussion of the incident to not be "He/She deserved it. #JUSTIFIED!"

[pdub]

Regarding your last sentence, i'm fairly certain no one is saying "He/She deserved it. #JUSTIFIED!"

[Cascadia]

god damnit......you just..............

[CrimsonNBlue]

Yes, it is often that the bad jumps in logic are largely part of the divide.

When something like this happens, I can't help myself but to first look at the legal issues, but I also think it is important to understand them and not overreact when where, something like this, doesn't end up in a charge or conviction. There are legal reasons why it will (likely) not, and there will be anger that I think is counterproductive.

But the overall conversation should stay. Laws and policy are made by humans, and we can change them.

Right. I don't think the officer will be (or should be) charged in the death of Ma'Khia Bryant. From a legal perspective I'm presuming (not an expert on law) that his use of deadly force is justified and legal.

What I would like to see happen is for cops to stop fucking killing people when there are ways to deescalate the situation. It's impossible to predict an alternative future, but I think this situation with Ma'Khia Bryant could have easily ended without someone dying.

edit: I'd also like to see the first discussion of the incident to not be "He/She deserved it. #JUSTIFIED!"

Yes, there is a very large disingenuous side that looks at this, says "Justified!" and then wants to move on to the next conversation and sees everyone else as just bitching and moaning.


I do tend to believe we have the best justice system in the world. It is also far, far from perfect as every system has flaws.

I absolutely wonder if it is past time to tweak it to help account for its biggest flaw: the susceptibility to and drastic effects from human error. Those answers, I don't even know where to start.

[ousdahl]

Yeah. Something like that.

Specific incidents should be discussed, but it seems counterproductive to discuss them in a vacuum, without also regarding systemic historical trends. And let’s reform policing in a way that strives for fewer casualties, not more.

Or something.

I’ll admit, because of those systemic historical trends, I’m a little more inclined to give a certain benefit of doubt to the oppressed, rather than the oppressor.

Or something. I dunno.

And I promise, I never intended to use racial terms as a derogatory slur.

(Except calling illy a cracker)

[Cascadia]

Yes, it is often that the bad jumps in logic are largely part of the divide.

When something like this happens, I can't help myself but to first look at the legal issues, but I also think it is important to understand them and not overreact when where, something like this, doesn't end up in a charge or conviction. There are legal reasons why it will (likely) not, and there will be anger that I think is counterproductive.

But the overall conversation should stay. Laws and policy are made by humans, and we can change them.

Right. I don't think the officer will be (or should be) charged in the death of Ma'Khia Bryant. From a legal perspective I'm presuming (not an expert on law) that his use of deadly force is justified and legal.

What I would like to see happen is for cops to stop fucking killing people when there are ways to deescalate the situation. It's impossible to predict an alternative future, but I think this situation with Ma'Khia Bryant could have easily ended without someone dying.

edit: I'd also like to see the first discussion of the incident to not be "He/She deserved it. #JUSTIFIED!"

Yes, there is a very large disingenuous side that looks at this, says "Justified!" and then wants to move on to the next conversation and sees everyone else as just bitching and moaning.


I do tend to believe we have the best justice system in the world. It is also far, far from perfect as every system has flaws.

I absolutely wonder if it is past time to tweak it to help account for its biggest flaw: the susceptibility to and drastic effects from human error. Those answers, I don't even know where to start.

I mostly agree. Although Canada and New Zealand may have better justice systems, if only slightly. I think the US legal system gets it right most of the time. I think our sentencings need reworked, but that a different debate.

I don't have all the answers to solve these problems either but I think two things need to happen in order to start making progress.

1. A massive update to our police trainings, policies and vetting of new officers
2. Divest some funds from police departments to either
a. invest in other forms of public safety
b. invest in special police units that are specifically trained on how to deal with non-violent and mental health issues.

[Deleted User 863]

Yes, it is often that the bad jumps in logic are largely part of the divide.

When something like this happens, I can't help myself but to first look at the legal issues, but I also think it is important to understand them and not overreact when where, something like this, doesn't end up in a charge or conviction. There are legal reasons why it will (likely) not, and there will be anger that I think is counterproductive.

But the overall conversation should stay. Laws and policy are made by humans, and we can change them.

Right. I don't think the officer will be (or should be) charged in the death of Ma'Khia Bryant. From a legal perspective I'm presuming (not an expert on law) that his use of deadly force is justified and legal.

What I would like to see happen is for cops to stop fucking killing people when there are ways to deescalate the situation. It's impossible to predict an alternative future, but I think this situation with Ma'Khia Bryant could have easily ended without someone dying.

edit: I'd also like to see the first discussion of the incident to not be "He/She deserved it. #JUSTIFIED!"

Yes, there is a very large disingenuous side that looks at this, says "Justified!" and then wants to move on to the next conversation and sees everyone else as just bitching and moaning.


I do tend to believe we have the best justice system in the world. It is also far, far from perfect as every system has flaws.

I absolutely wonder if it is past time to tweak it to help account for its biggest flaw: the susceptibility to and drastic effects from human error. Those answers, I don't even know where to start.

There is also a large side of people who scream justified when it is indeed justified, but then are completely silent when there is a George Floyd type case where it clearly isn't. I hate that shit. They go from the most vocally obnoxious you can dream of, to silent as a church mouse in an instant.

[Deleted User 863]

I don't have all the answers to solve these problems either but I think two things need to happen in order to start making progress.

1. A massive update to our police trainings, policies and vetting of new officers
2. Divest some funds from police departments to either
a. invest in other forms of public safety
b. invest in special police units that are specifically trained on how to deal with non-violent and mental health issues.

Well said.

[CrimsonNBlue]

Right. I don't think the officer will be (or should be) charged in the death of Ma'Khia Bryant. From a legal perspective I'm presuming (not an expert on law) that his use of deadly force is justified and legal.

What I would like to see happen is for cops to stop fucking killing people when there are ways to deescalate the situation. It's impossible to predict an alternative future, but I think this situation with Ma'Khia Bryant could have easily ended without someone dying.

edit: I'd also like to see the first discussion of the incident to not be "He/She deserved it. #JUSTIFIED!"

Yes, there is a very large disingenuous side that looks at this, says "Justified!" and then wants to move on to the next conversation and sees everyone else as just bitching and moaning.


I do tend to believe we have the best justice system in the world. It is also far, far from perfect as every system has flaws.

I absolutely wonder if it is past time to tweak it to help account for its biggest flaw: the susceptibility to and drastic effects from human error. Those answers, I don't even know where to start.

I mostly agree. Although Canada and New Zealand may have better justice systems, if only slightly. I think the US legal system gets it right most of the time. I think our sentencings need reworked, but that a different debate.

I don't have all the answers to solve these problems either but I think two things need to happen in order to start making progress.

1. A massive update to our police trainings, policies and vetting of new officers
2. Divest some funds from police departments to either
a. invest in other forms of public safety
b. invest in special police units that are specifically trained on how to deal with non-violent and mental health issues.

I agree with this and think it is all needed, my concern is that the problem is just so dep.

A huge problem is the distrust, fear, and even hatred that some police have for a certain portion of the public. I am not sure any amount of training can change that (not to say we shouldn't increase it) as we are dealing with centuries of built in prejudice. And so much of it is unconscious.

[CrimsonNBlue]

I do have one suggestion: the way and things the US teaches history, literature, etc. in public schools is outrageously biased.

[Deleted User 863]

Yes, there is a very large disingenuous side that looks at this, says "Justified!" and then wants to move on to the next conversation and sees everyone else as just bitching and moaning.


I do tend to believe we have the best justice system in the world. It is also far, far from perfect as every system has flaws.

I absolutely wonder if it is past time to tweak it to help account for its biggest flaw: the susceptibility to and drastic effects from human error. Those answers, I don't even know where to start.

I mostly agree. Although Canada and New Zealand may have better justice systems, if only slightly. I think the US legal system gets it right most of the time. I think our sentencings need reworked, but that a different debate.

I don't have all the answers to solve these problems either but I think two things need to happen in order to start making progress.

1. A massive update to our police trainings, policies and vetting of new officers
2. Divest some funds from police departments to either
a. invest in other forms of public safety
b. invest in special police units that are specifically trained on how to deal with non-violent and mental health issues.

I agree with this and think it is all needed, my concern is that the problem is just so dep.

A huge problem is the distrust, fear, and even hatred that some police have for a certain portion of the public. I am not sure any amount of training can change that (not to say we shouldn't increase it) as we are dealing with centuries of built in prejudice. And so much of it is unconscious.

The unconscious bias is probably more problematic than the outright racists. At least it is easy to spot the bad apples. It is the unknown bias that will be harder to dismantle, especially within school systems and law enforcement (imo).

[Deleted User 865]

I do have one suggestion: the way and things the US teaches history, literature, etc. in public schools is outrageously biased.

You mean that the earth isn't only 6,000 years old?

https://www.motherjones.com/politics/20 ... eationism/