NFL 2021

[CrimsonNBlue]

I guess what I'm saying is this isn't Gruden being judged by the standards of now.

You're saying a lot more eloquently what I have been trying to say.

That shit absolutely was not cool at that time. Michael Richards was 2006. Don Imus 2007.

[pdub]

Punching people in the face is not a problem according to twocoach.

Hey look over there!

I wouldn't fall for that trick because you'd just try and punch me in the face and say it was nbd.

[CrimsonNBlue]

I'm guilty of this myself, but a decade ago was not the mid 90's.

"20 years ago" still seems like it should be the 1980's.

Latest email that we know of was 3 years ago. That's less than 2 COVID's ago.

[CrimsonNBlue]

Punching people in the face is not a problem according to twocoach.

Hey look over there!

When you're tasked with defending racist behavior at all costs, you always get to a point of deflection and red herrings. "Everyone does it!"

[twocoach]

Punching people in the face is not a problem according to twocoach.

Hey look over there!

When you're tasked with defending racist behavior at all costs, you always get to a point of deflection and red herrings. "Everyone does it!"

It's not surprising that the people who think it is perfectly acceptable to do gross things are surprised that everyone else doesn't do those same gross things.

[pdub]

Saying I am defending racist behavior is just as extreme/a defelection as saying twocoach doesn't have a problem with punching people in the face.

Punching people in the face isn't the answer.
I don't think firing people for private 10 year old emails is the answer either.
Do I think it warrants a conversation to clarify what is wrong here? I do. Do I think it warrants punishment? For sure.

I'm GM I go to my players and staff and have a group conversation and open my door to private ones. If the general feel of the team was this isn't salvageable, as in they lost the confidence and trust of their coach, then for sure, he'd be gone. Maybe they did that. But I wouldn't fire him without hearing from the majority of the people who directly work with him now.

[jfish26]

Saying I am defending racist behavior is just as extreme/a defelection as saying twocoach doesn't have a problem with punching people in the face.

Punching people in the face isn't the answer.
I don't think firing people for private 10 year old emails is the answer either.
Do I think it warrants a conversation to clarify what is wrong here? I do. Do I think it warrants punishment? For sure.

I'm GM I go to my players and staff and have a group conversation and open my door to private ones. If the general feel of the team was this isn't salvageable, then for sure, he'd be gone. Maybe they did that. But I wouldn't fire him without hearing from the majority of the people who directly work with him now.

They're not private! And they are directly related to his job (true both when sent, and now)!

[pdub]

I thought Gruden was working for Monday Night Football and emailing Washington's president.
He wasn't employed by Washington.

[twocoach]

Saying I am defending racist behavior is just as extreme/a defelection as saying twocoach doesn't have a problem with punching people in the face.

Punching people in the face isn't the answer.
I don't think firing people for private 10 year old emails is the answer either.
Do I think it warrants a conversation to clarify what is wrong here? I do. Do I think it warrants punishment? For sure.

I'm GM I go to my players and staff and have a group conversation and open my door to private ones. If the general feel of the team was this isn't salvageable, as in they lost the confidence and trust of their coach, then for sure, he'd be gone. Maybe they did that. But I wouldn't fire him without hearing from the majority of the people who directly work with him now.

In certain situations, I do not have a problem with someone getting punched in the face. We could all problem come up with an agreed upon list of a dozen of them fairly quickly.

In certain situations, I also do not have a problem with an employee being fired without having all people directly or indirectly involved with them being consulted in a conversation. And for all we know, those conversations happened and we just aren't aware of them.

And if you don't think racist comments, comments about women NFL refs and comments about gay players negatively affect the job performance of the head coach of the Raiders, who have black players, play in games reffed by women and who have the first openly gay player in the NFL then you are just arguing to argue.

[pdub]

It's not surprising that the people who think it is perfectly acceptable to do gross things are surprised that everyone else doesn't do those same gross things.

I didn't normally punch people in the face in college, no.

[jfish26]

Just from a practical standpoint - take the "should he get fired for being an objectively shitty and stupid person" question out of it - how are the Raiders supposed to get guys (or get buy-in from guys) with this out there? Standing by Gruden would be standing by the words, it's just how it would work from a competitive standpoint.

[pdub]

Just from a practical standpoint - take the "should he get fired for being an objectively shitty and stupid person" question out of it - how are the Raiders supposed to get guys (or get buy-in from guys) with this out there? Standing by Gruden would be standing by the words, it's just how it would work from a competitive standpoint.

I'd have to get that impression from the players - that the things he emailed, in private, some time ago, are going to affect them that much to where they can't forgive him and can't play for him.

[twocoach]

It's not surprising that the people who think it is perfectly acceptable to do gross things are surprised that everyone else doesn't do those same gross things.

I didn't normally punch people in the face in college, no.

Maybe you were the guy that just sat there and laughed at someone who was aggressively in the face of your friend screaming "what are you going to do about it Jew Boy" but I was not. If that's a knock on me, so be it. I can sleep at night with that.

[CrimsonNBlue]

Long talks as punishment is partly a reason why history keeps repeating itself on this issue.

Suspend that law partner a week for calling that associate a derogatory term, he'll get the message. Have the shift manager talk to HR for grabbing the cashier's ass. Maybe a little therapy for that pedo gymnastics trainer, he'll stop. It's just over and over and over. At what point can everyone just attack the bad behavior as completely unacceptable and unwelcome?

And now, young millenials/Gen Z are over it. An age group that Carl Nassib belongs to. They're not going to work in that environment.

[CrimsonNBlue]

Just from a practical standpoint - take the "should he get fired for being an objectively shitty and stupid person" question out of it - how are the Raiders supposed to get guys (or get buy-in from guys) with this out there? Standing by Gruden would be standing by the words, it's just how it would work from a competitive standpoint.

Just mentioned in my last, but you have to feel so badly for Nassib.

Inevitably, will be mentioned during this saga, and did absolutely nothing. Completely unfair.

[jfish26]

Just from a practical standpoint - take the "should he get fired for being an objectively shitty and stupid person" question out of it - how are the Raiders supposed to get guys (or get buy-in from guys) with this out there? Standing by Gruden would be standing by the words, it's just how it would work from a competitive standpoint.

I'd have to get that impression from the players - that the things he emailed, in private, some time ago, are going to affect them that much to where they can't forgive him and can't play for him.

Lord.

Two things:

1. You can keep saying the emails are private, but (1) that doesn't make it true, and (2) even if true, would that be remotely favorable to Gruden? "Oh, so he's only a racist homophobe when he thinks no one is looking. All good then!"

2. Sorry, this isn't something you let the players decide. As an organization, standing behind Gruden here would be standing behind his words. Words he said when he was already a public figure, and when saying those words in public would have got him fired from the job he had at the time.

[twocoach]

Long talks as punishment is partly a reason why history keeps repeating itself on this issue.

Suspend that law partner a week for calling that associate a derogatory term, he'll get the message. Have the shift manager talk to HR for grabbing the cashier's ass. Maybe a little therapy for that pedo gymnastics trainer, he'll stop. It's just over and over and over. At what point can everyone just attack the bad behavior as completely unacceptable and unwelcome?

And now, young millenials/Gen Z are over it. An age group that Carl Nassib belongs to. They're not going to work in that environment.

100% agreed. BS consequences are the same as no consequences and once it is shown that there are no real consequences, the behaviors just continue.

We can't just sit around waiting for a generation of knuckledraggers to die off while they train the next generation that it's actually still "not that big a deal" to be a knuckledragger.

[twocoach]

Just from a practical standpoint - take the "should he get fired for being an objectively shitty and stupid person" question out of it - how are the Raiders supposed to get guys (or get buy-in from guys) with this out there? Standing by Gruden would be standing by the words, it's just how it would work from a competitive standpoint.

I'd have to get that impression from the players - that the things he emailed, in private, some time ago, are going to affect them that much to where they can't forgive him and can't play for him.

A phone call is private. An email is not. Just stop it. There is no such thing as a private email.

[CrimsonNBlue]

Long talks as punishment is partly a reason why history keeps repeating itself on this issue.

Suspend that law partner a week for calling that associate a derogatory term, he'll get the message. Have the shift manager talk to HR for grabbing the cashier's ass. Maybe a little therapy for that pedo gymnastics trainer, he'll stop. It's just over and over and over. At what point can everyone just attack the bad behavior as completely unacceptable and unwelcome?

And now, young millenials/Gen Z are over it. An age group that Carl Nassib belongs to. They're not going to work in that environment.

100% agreed. BS consequences are the same as no consequences and once it is shown that there are no real consequences, the behaviors just continue.

We can't just sit around waiting for a generation of knuckledraggers to die off while they train the next generation that it's actually still "not that big a deal" to be a knuckledragger.

The consequences for Gruden after 7 years of documented offensive emails? ~$5m/year extensions from Disney and a 10 year $100 million contract in the NFL. The two companies involved in the email communications!

[twocoach]

Just from a practical standpoint - take the "should he get fired for being an objectively shitty and stupid person" question out of it - how are the Raiders supposed to get guys (or get buy-in from guys) with this out there? Standing by Gruden would be standing by the words, it's just how it would work from a competitive standpoint.

Just mentioned in my last, but you have to feel so badly for Nassib.

Inevitably, will be mentioned during this saga, and did absolutely nothing. Completely unfair.

That dude has been playing great this year. Frankly, I have been happy that talk of him during games has been solely focused on his great performance and not his off field sexual preferences. It has been good to see him treated as just another really good football player.