Let’s have a war!

[Mjl]

Japhy just sent me a nice PM, and I just sent a nice response. Japhy, feel free to share.

Regarding the whole "I realize I must sound like Lobster right now," I realize it! I sound like a crazy person right now!

I've been meaning to compare and contrast me and the crustacean for a while now.

Among other things, he seemed to only accept facts or news that fit with his world view, and ignore or be skeptical of the rest. I'm trying to seek facts and news BEYOND my once-established world view. And I'm skeptical of it all right now. Right now particularly, skepticism IS my world view!

For real, has it even occurred to anyone just how much propaganda we're subjected to? Particularly right now, with the war drums a-beatin? 1. And how conditioned we are to just ACCEPT war? And not only accept war, but reject any criticism of war, or any context, 2. or anyone who actually tries to understand it on some level beyond "it's good vs bad so pick a side."

Once you open yourself to this idea, you realize just how much propaganda is really around, and how many different flavors it can come in. Sometimes it's nuanced and subtle. Sometimes it's right there in your face. Guess this is one of the consequences of Q taking the blue pill.

Admittedly, I'm paranoid. I don't know what to believe!

but like, come on, 3. did we not learn ANYTHING from the Iraq war? We were told over and over and over that there's WMDs there, no for real, we'll find them if we just go to WAR! and the only acceptable response is WAR, no end in sight, just accept it with pride and take a side, it's just another shithole country on the other side of the world either way.

cuz, about that...

I'm really confused - are you under the impression the US has gone to war here? That's the only way that post makes sense. I mean, I will try to understand some of the stuff from above as numbered...

1. I don't disagree with anything you said up until here, but man is this ever the opposite of the truth. People are horrified by this war, that's why we're so much against the country that started the all-out war. Shit like "well, NATO has been expanding" in response to this attack is accepting war, it's suggesting it's warranted.

2. Stop projecting. You're accusing people of oversimplifying if they think one side is in the wrong. That's oversimplifying - it's saying every argument has two sides. No, it doesn't. It goes back to #1. We don't like war, we don't accept war, we know enough to see that Ukraine's actions do not warrant a war, so we consider the side that started the all-out war the bad guy. The fact that there is pro-Ukranian propoganda does not mean that that is the reason we consider Russia the bad guy here.

3. I would think the response here shows we did learn from that war. Invading another country is bad, don't do it. That's why Russia is the "bad guy" here. Did you learn anything from it?


You're treating everyone opposed to Putin as idiots, as mindless consumers of propoganda. Can you get it through your head that maybe we're not as naive and stupid as you think?

[twocoach]

Japhy just sent me a nice PM, and I just sent a nice response. Japhy, feel free to share.

Regarding the whole "I realize I must sound like Lobster right now," I realize it! I sound like a crazy person right now!

I've been meaning to compare and contrast me and the crustacean for a while now.

Among other things, he seemed to only accept facts or news that fit with his world view, and ignore or be skeptical of the rest. I'm trying to seek facts and news BEYOND my once-established world view. And I'm skeptical of it all right now. Right now particularly, skepticism IS my world view!

For real, has it even occurred to anyone just how much propaganda we're subjected to? Particularly right now, with the war drums a-beatin? And how conditioned we are to just ACCEPT war? And not only accept war, but reject any criticism of war, or any context, or anyone who actually tries to understand it on some level beyond "it's good vs bad so pick a side."

Once you open yourself to this idea, you realize just how much propaganda is really around, and how many different flavors it can come in. Sometimes it's nuanced and subtle. Sometimes it's right there in your face. Guess this is one of the consequences of Q taking the blue pill.

Admittedly, I'm paranoid. I don't know what to believe!

but like, come on, did we not learn ANYTHING from the Iraq war? We were told over and over and over that there's WMDs there, no for real, we'll find them if we just go to WAR! and the only acceptable response is WAR, no end in sight, just accept it with pride and take a side, it's just another shithole country on the other side of the world either way.

cuz, about that...

I guess I just don't really understand what point you're trying to make in days-long attempt to see the bigger picture. What is it you are looking for here? Facts? There are plenty out there to be had if you take your time to vet the sources and to read them.
- It would take years of research and studying with experts in the field to know all that has gotten us to this point.
- We all already know we are at siege from propaganda. Advertising, politics, television, it's all propaganda trying to get us to think/feel/spend/vote a certain way.
- There is nothing we can personally do about this current situation with Russia. We can angst over it. We can contact our senators and leave a message that will never be listened to. We can get on a plane, fly over to Europe, figure out a way to get into Ukraine and join the fight against Russian tyranny. Or we can just feel helpless that people are suffering and hope that those with power can put an end to it as soon as possible.

What are you hoping to get out of this effort because it seems to only be getting you confrontations with people who are looking for confrontations.

[jfish26]

A member of the Ukrainian parliament just said on CNN that Russia has put its rocket and missile batteries in the Chernobyl plant site, so that Ukraine will not attack them.

[Deleted User 863]

Ousdahl seems to consume as much or more "propaganda" as anyone around here. And doesn't seem to realize it?

[jfish26]

Ousdahl seems to consume as much or more "propaganda" as anyone around here. And doesn't seem to realize it?

I'm not convinced it isn't a bit.

[NewtonHawk11]

Ousdahl seems to consume as much or more "propaganda" as anyone around here. And doesn't seem to realize it?

I'm not convinced it isn't a bit.

Man, you might be right.

[TDub]

Ousdahl seems to consume as much or more "propaganda" as anyone around here. And doesn't seem to realize it?

I'm not convinced it isn't a bit.

it's possible. If it is, that is some real dedication to the part though.

[Qusdahl]

Like I said, I've dropped any bits and been as sincere as I can in this thread for a while now.

This is, more or less, my response to Japhy:

OF COURSE I don't think there's anything legit about Putin. That's why I have explicitly and consistently and repeatedly condemned him, over and over! More than anyone else in this thread! Please take that at face value! Seriously!

I'm not trying to play the victim card, but I dunno if I've ever been so gaslighted. How can I be here like "fuck Putin fuck Putin FUCK PUTIN" and others come back with "yer just repeating Putin's rhetoric." I could have phrased certain things better, I guess. but I think it's also how unpopular my stance is either way? That maybe there IS blame to go around, and maybe we SHOULD look in the mirror, even if the "now is not the time" crowd don't like it. "Now is not the time" is exactly what the war machine wants us to do right now! "You never ask questions when god's on your side," remember? Just accept it all bravely!

I'm the only one also condemning the US/NATO war machine too. And that freaks people out! And prompts these conditioned responses against me, to paint me like I must be some bad-guy sympathizer, cuz I won't just get blindly on board with taking the "good guys's" own word for it that they really are the good guys.

Cuz come on, the US and NATO WANTED this war. That's why they've been poking the bear that is Putin (fuck him) for years now.

That's why we've been supplying who knows how many weapons to their ragtag volunteer "national guard" (read: Ukrainian Proud Boys), who have been using the weapons and training to slaughter their fellow countrymen (particularly ethnic Russians in the eastern Ukrainian regions), to the count of some 14000 or so deaths over the past 8 years.

That's why we had the likes of Biden and McCain, no less, making special guest appearances in Ukraine during their shady 2014 regime change. That's why there's been all the other NATO-sponsored violence in eastern European countries (coincidentally right along Russia's border) since the dissolution of the USSR, in violation of the terms NATO offered as part of that agreement.

That fighting has inched closer and closer to Russia's own doorstep; right up to the den of the bear. And now that we finally woke the bear up, we're supposed to act all surprised and outraged and like this is some spontaneous unilateral aggression that happened in a vacuum, for no other reason than Putin (fuck him) just woke up and decided to be an asshole one day?

This war could have been over last week, if US/NATO wanted it to be. I think Putin (fuck him) is acting out of some reactionary instinct himself, NOT THAT I CONDONE IT, and just might back off in a hurry if NATO showed any willingness to broker peace themselves.

But NATO didn't! And they don't! That would require some element of self-awareness or responsibility of NATO's own in the matter, and also require the desire for peace over war. But instead, US/NATO just keeps pumping in more and more weapons yet!

US/NATO is more concerned about their own hegemony. And with any "anti-war" movement in the west so crippled, and a general population so conditioned to just ACCEPT war, and to pick a side, that they're just getting away with it, yet again.

Ukraine is just a pawn in NATO's game. They're less concerned about peace and more concerned about things like controlling every gas pipeline in the world, and that's giving them the benefit of the doubt and assuming there are even valid-ish reasons to be poking bears? What else could it be? Some cold war holdover petty grudge that still just wants to stick it to those ruskies? Some chicken-and-egg game theory that just in case Putin (fuck him) is aggressive some day we better be increasingly and invasively aggressive first?

Speaking of "the most serious danger to peace and security the world has seen in our lifetime," who's bombed more folks and started more wars since WW2 - Russia? Or the US? Who's the only ones in history to actually nuke another country, civilians be damned - Russia? or the US? Who's the ones with who knows how many other "proxy wars" all around the world that we just don't care about unless the media tells us to - Russia? or the US?

On a grander worldview level I just think it's irresponsible, dangerous even, to pick and choose which acts of militarized aggression are actual threats to peace and security, and which ones are worth shrugging off.

Please realize this is where I'm coming from. I'm anti-Putin (fuck him) and anti-Russian aggression as fuck! I'm just anti NATO aggression too. It's not a popular or even familiar stance, but it's an anti-war stance, anti-both sides being aggressive, with genuine concern for dangers to peace and security. I just dunno if we can fight fire with fire.

I also am not thrilled that the fate of the world is in China's hands more than anyone else's. Does the US and NATO really have nothing more to offer than military aggression?

And feel free to critique, too! I'm by no means bound to one opinion here. Criticism is how we learn. (lobster never got that memo). Let's just try to keep it constructive.

[Deleted User 863]

Ousdahl seems to consume as much or more "propaganda" as anyone around here. And doesn't seem to realize it?

I'm not convinced it isn't a bit.

Well, it almost always is.

[Wiff]

We can get on a plane, fly over to Europe, figure out a way to get into Ukraine and join the fight against Russian tyranny.

FWIW, you can get one-way flights from MCI to Kiev for around $450 on Expedia, and some nice Airbnb rentals in downtown Kiev are pretty cheap right now. See, e.g.,
https://www.airbnb.com/rooms/20047359?a ... AVWCWiO44w

[TDub]

people have repeatedly attempted to critique your responses and provided ample sources and back up foe you to read. You dont actually want critiques, you repeatedly shrug them off and continue on whatever direction your current crusade is headed. Saying your open to other views does not make it so, your response has shown otherwise.

[Qusdahl]

sigh.

[MICHHAWK]

i think most everyone is well aware that the oushdale is a comedy routine.

[Mjl]

I give up. Nothing is getting through.

It's not a schtick, if you guys look at far-left Twitter "influencers" (or far right, they're taking the same stance), you'd see he's just parroting what he sees there.

[PhDhawk]

can we get a percentage breakdown for each poster. Might be helpful

you might want to have someone else do it. His first post confirms he doesn't understand how percentages work.

[sdoyel]

A member of the Ukrainian parliament just said on CNN that Russia has put its rocket and missile batteries in the Chernobyl plant site, so that Ukraine will not attack them.

Pretty damn smart, TBH.

[KUTradition]

https://www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/russia ... broadcast/

[sdoyel]

This photo really got to me as a father of 2 & 6 yo boys.

[Qusdahl]

[sdoyel]

Dummies.