Let’s have a war!

[twocoach]

Cato institute lulz

https://www.cato.org/commentary/whitewa ... corruption

https://www.cato.org/commentary/news-me ... rows-worse

I haven't really seen anyone specifically trying to craft Ukraine as some sort of model of democracy and freedom. Maybe I don't pay enough attention but it seems that they are just being portrayed as a country who wants to retain their independence and whose people don't want to be bombed, shot, attacked, raped and pillaged by Russians.

yea. Since you said it first, maybe you don't pay enough attention.

Cuuuuz...know how I know you didn't even read the link?

President Biden, in his March 26 remarks on the war, said the conflict was “a battle between democracy and autocracy, between liberty and repression, between a rules‐​based order and one governed by brute force.”

CNN’s John Blake literally compared Ukraine’s cause to America’s in its Revolutionary War. He claimed Ukrainians “are building their own monuments to democracy, with their blood.” The world, he said, “has been transfixed by their battle to repel the mighty Russian army and preserve the birth of democracy in their homeland.” He added that “the war in Ukraine isn’t just a geopolitical struggle—it’s a call to remember. The courage of the Ukrainian people is a reminder of what the U.S. used to be—a ‘beacon of liberty,’ where virtually every schoolchild memorized the ‘Concord Hymn’ poem inscribed at the base of the Minute Man statue.”

In a March 26 USA Today op‐​ed, John M. Bridgeland, director of the White House Domestic Policy Council under President George W. Bush, similarly expressed fawning admiration for Zelensky and Ukraine’s alleged commitment to democracy. “The world is seeing the bravery of Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky and the Ukrainian people, who are willing to die to defend their democracy and freedom,” he wrote. Indeed, Bridgeland said, “No cost is too high [for Ukrainians] to defend their democracy and beloved Ukraine.”

Fox News contributor and former CIA station chief Dan Hoffman contended that “What scares Vladimir Putin at the heart of this conflict is democracy. It’s not that NATO represents a threat.” He added that “Putin couldn’t stomach a democracy on his border with a Russian‐​speaking population and commercial links to Europe. That’s why he launched this brutal attack which has caused so many Ukrainian civilians, innocent civilians, to die.”

Meh, the media likes to dramatize things as do people performing in the media. The reality is that I don't have a problem with some of our taxpayer dollars being spent on helping Ukraine not be wiped off the map by Russia even if the Ukrainian government has issues itself. The US government has issues as well and I don't mind my taxpayer dollars being used on trying to help US citizens not be killed.

[Cascadia]

This thread definitely had a “USA is defending freedom and democracy“ vibe for quite a while.

[twocoach]

This thread definitely had a “USA is defending freedom and democracy“ vibe for quite a while.

I think the “USA is defending freedom" is enough. But I have a unique dislike of Russia so I freely admit to not being unbiased in the situation.

[ousdahl]

how much of that "unique dislike" of Russia is at least in some part a product of decades of Cold War propaganda?

the Qusdahl pages can be all tin foil hatty about how much the west freaks out about communism...after WW2, we ride a less a wave of nazi scare, and more a wave of red scare, and McCarthyism, and all sorts of anti-Russia everything, even though Russia was just previously our pals who helped to defeat the nazis? But as for the nazis, well, we just kinda forgave them then gave them jobs at NATO.

and how the sentiment still seems to permeate today, with the whole nazi presence in Ukraine, and the way it's downplayed in favor of all these oversimplified good vs. evil anti-Russia narratives

but that's not to say Russia wasn't and isn't a bunch of shitheads either way. Especially Putin!

[jhawks99]

Oussie, really, I'm not sure what point you're trying to make.
Putin has expressed a desire to expand Russia to it's former boarders.
Ukraine isn't full of choirboys.
One is way worse than the other and the former needs to be stopped before they start steamrolling over Eastern Europe.

And the Cold War was way more than propaganda.

[KUTradition]

Ous, you do realize that vlad was with the Nazis before they were against them, right?

point being, it’s a bit disingenuous to prop them up as being part of the Allied forces when they were more than willing to support hitler up until he double crossed them

[ousdahl]

U.S. Lacks a Clear Picture of Ukraine’s War Strategy, Officials Say

Intelligence agencies know far more about Russia’s military, even as the United States ships billions of dollars in weapons to the Ukrainians.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/08/us/p ... gence.html

[MICHHAWK]

i agree. we should stop sending billions over seas.

[jhawks99]

We should not have sent arms and supplies to GB in 1940 either, huh mich?

[twocoach]

how much of that "unique dislike" of Russia is at least in some part a product of decades of Cold War propaganda?

the Qusdahl pages can be all tin foil hatty about how much the west freaks out about communism...after WW2, we ride a less a wave of nazi scare, and more a wave of red scare, and McCarthyism, and all sorts of anti-Russia everything, even though Russia was just previously our pals who helped to defeat the nazis? But as for the nazis, well, we just kinda forgave them then gave them jobs at NATO.

and how the sentiment still seems to permeate today, with the whole nazi presence in Ukraine, and the way it's downplayed in favor of all these oversimplified good vs. evil anti-Russia narratives

but that's not to say Russia wasn't and isn't a bunch of shitheads either way. Especially Putin!

None of it. I have had a number of personal interactions with Russian athletes and their sporting federation through my time in amateur sports and I have very little to say about them that is good. They were by nature cheats who looked down on anyone who followed the rules as "idiots" so it is no wonder that Trump has such admiration for them.

And I have no interest in continuing this silly discussion about the "downplaying of nazi presence in Ukraine" because it is irrelevant to my feelings about whether or not we should be sending support in the form of money and munitions to Ukraine to help them fend off Russian invaders. If you think that this invasion has anything to do with nazis then you're doing the propaganda work of the Russians. There is some sort of anti-Semitic "nazi" presence in virtually every nation in the world, including ours. It is irrelevant to the problem.

[twocoach]

Oussie, really, I'm not sure what point you're trying to make.
Putin has expressed a desire to expand Russia to it's former boarders.
Ukraine isn't full of choirboys.
One is way worse than the other and the former needs to be stopped before they start steamrolling over Eastern Europe.

And the Cold War was way more than propaganda.

At this point it just seems like he is trying to justify his continued discussions of it.

[DrPepper]

Yesterday I had coffee with a colleague I hadn't seen in over a year. I knew her parents were in Russia and I had met them when they came to visit (before Covid). It was hard to hold back tears as she told me that her father is Ukrainian. I didn't know that.
She gave me a painting for my new office. Painting is what she does to try to console herself.
I hate war.

[twocoach]

Yesterday I had coffee with a colleague I hadn't seen in over a year. I knew her parents were in Russia and I had met them when they came to visit (before Covid). It was hard to hold back tears as she told me that her father is Ukrainian. I didn't know that.
She gave me a painting for my new office. Painting is what she does to try to console herself.
I hate war.

It's depressing to see so many families and lives torn apart. Entire towns have basically been wiped off the map. Culture and history erased. Livelihoods destroyed. Innocent people raped, tortured and killed. It's gut wrenching to see. That's part of why I find this whole "should we really be trying to help these people?" talk so gross. Of course we should. Be freaking human.

[ousdahl]

how much of that "unique dislike" of Russia is at least in some part a product of decades of Cold War propaganda?

the Qusdahl pages can be all tin foil hatty about how much the west freaks out about communism...after WW2, we ride a less a wave of nazi scare, and more a wave of red scare, and McCarthyism, and all sorts of anti-Russia everything, even though Russia was just previously our pals who helped to defeat the nazis? But as for the nazis, well, we just kinda forgave them then gave them jobs at NATO.

and how the sentiment still seems to permeate today, with the whole nazi presence in Ukraine, and the way it's downplayed in favor of all these oversimplified good vs. evil anti-Russia narratives

but that's not to say Russia wasn't and isn't a bunch of shitheads either way. Especially Putin!

None of it. I have had a number of personal interactions with Russian athletes and their sporting federation through my time in amateur sports and I have very little to say about them that is good. They were by nature cheats who looked down on anyone who followed the rules as "idiots" so it is no wonder that Trump has such admiration for them.

And I have no interest in continuing this silly discussion about the "downplaying of nazi presence in Ukraine" because it is irrelevant to my feelings about whether or not we should be sending support in the form of money and munitions to Ukraine to help them fend off Russian invaders. If you think that this invasion has anything to do with nazis then you're doing the propaganda work of the Russians. There is some sort of anti-Semitic "nazi" presence in virtually every nation in the world, including ours. It is irrelevant to the problem.

[ousdahl]

I hate war.

POTD

[twocoach]

how much of that "unique dislike" of Russia is at least in some part a product of decades of Cold War propaganda?

the Qusdahl pages can be all tin foil hatty about how much the west freaks out about communism...after WW2, we ride a less a wave of nazi scare, and more a wave of red scare, and McCarthyism, and all sorts of anti-Russia everything, even though Russia was just previously our pals who helped to defeat the nazis? But as for the nazis, well, we just kinda forgave them then gave them jobs at NATO.

and how the sentiment still seems to permeate today, with the whole nazi presence in Ukraine, and the way it's downplayed in favor of all these oversimplified good vs. evil anti-Russia narratives

but that's not to say Russia wasn't and isn't a bunch of shitheads either way. Especially Putin!

None of it. I have had a number of personal interactions with Russian athletes and their sporting federation through my time in amateur sports and I have very little to say about them that is good. They were by nature cheats who looked down on anyone who followed the rules as "idiots" so it is no wonder that Trump has such admiration for them.

And I have no interest in continuing this silly discussion about the "downplaying of nazi presence in Ukraine" because it is irrelevant to my feelings about whether or not we should be sending support in the form of money and munitions to Ukraine to help them fend off Russian invaders. If you think that this invasion has anything to do with nazis then you're doing the propaganda work of the Russians. There is some sort of anti-Semitic "nazi" presence in virtually every nation in the world, including ours. It is irrelevant to the problem.

And?

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-61071243

[ousdahl]

and, HOW ARE YOU NOT ALARMED BY NAZIS

[twocoach]

and, HOW ARE YOU NOT ALARMED BY NAZIS

Because unfortunately people with those thoughts and feelings exist in every corner of the earth. Where have you been? Is this all new to you? Just because they use a term that described people from 80 years ago doesn't mean this ceased being an issue 80 years ago. Every nation on this earth has some form of ethnic/racial tension or outright hatred. Attaching the word "nazi" to it doesn't make it more alarming.

Allowing the Russian propaganda to scare you into discussing whether or not we should stop helping the Ukrainians, thus making it easier for Russia to wipe these people off the map (AKA do what the actual Nazis wanted to do to a population) is gross. I am happy that you are researching things you find troubling and agree that any "nazi" type of mentality is troubling and wrong, but it doesn't change anything for me. The Russian aggression against Ukraine needs to be stopped. If there are Ukrainian military members who are using their position of power as well as US-provided gear to further any type of "nazi" behavior then I hope it is also stopped as soon as possible.

[ousdahl]

yeah, unfortunately, they do. But that doesn't mean we should normalize them, right?

(And?)

And it certainly doesn't mean we should arm them!

that's the thing - do "people with those thoughts and feelings who exist in every corner of the earth" also get blindly thrown weapons paid for by you and me? Or is that unique to Ukraine?

Where have you been? Is this all new to you?

[twocoach]

yeah, unfortunately, they do. But that doesn't mean we should normalize them, right?

(And?)

And it certainly doesn't mean we should arm them!

that's the thing - do "people with those thoughts and feelings who exist in every corner of the earth" also get blindly thrown weapons paid for by you and me? Or is that unique to Ukraine?

Where have you been? Is this all new to you?

See how easy it was for them to convince you that all Ukrainians are "them"? Russian mission accomplished.