Let’s have a war!

[KUTradition]

the bait and switch worked like a charm

still talking about nazis even though putin all but admitted that such reasoning was a farce

Ousie, have you written any of your elected representatives? Poland apparently has a relatively large population of “nazis” too, so make sure to include the US’ dealings with them (and any others) in your list of complaints

[ousdahl]

Are we blindly pouring arms into Poland too?

with no regard for who gets them, or what's done with them?

(without looking it up, fuck, yea I bet we are)

[ousdahl]

Let me once again condemn Russian aggression. Fuck Putin! The invasion should be condemned, and is not justified, even if he thinks he's de-nazifying shit.

But let me once again condemn Ukrainian aggression. They've been accused of all sorts of war crimes, particularly in the last 8 years, and particularly in real time today. But not only do we "lack a clear picture" of what Ukraine is doing with our weapons (at least according to that Putin spambot the New York Times), but we aren't even allowed to talk about it?! That's fucked up.

and that's not even getting started on all the other war crimes perpetrated in places like Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Yemen, Palestine, Pakistan, etc. that don't get nearly the same press, because, well...

Forgive me if I struggle to pick and choose which war crimes are actually condemnable war crimes, and which are OK to just kinda shrug off.

I hate war.

[ousdahl]

yeah, unfortunately, they do. But that doesn't mean we should normalize them, right?

(And?)

And it certainly doesn't mean we should arm them!

that's the thing - do "people with those thoughts and feelings who exist in every corner of the earth" also get blindly thrown weapons paid for by you and me? Or is that unique to Ukraine?

Where have you been? Is this all new to you?

See how easy it was for them to convince you that all Ukrainians are "them"? Russian mission accomplished.

when I said "them" it was in reference to "people with those thoughts and feelings who exist in every corner of the earth."

I didn't mean "them" as "all Ukrainians." That's you twisting things around.

And, just a friendly PSA - I'm fucking tired of being accused of parroting Russian propaganda. Please cut that out. I've condemned Russia more than anyone. That part is easy for us all right now, right?

But I've also condemned nazis more than anyone. I dunno why that part is so difficult for some of you guys.

[twocoach]

yeah, unfortunately, they do. But that doesn't mean we should normalize them, right?

(And?)

And it certainly doesn't mean we should arm them!

that's the thing - do "people with those thoughts and feelings who exist in every corner of the earth" also get blindly thrown weapons paid for by you and me? Or is that unique to Ukraine?

Where have you been? Is this all new to you?

See how easy it was for them to convince you that all Ukrainians are "them"? Russian mission accomplished.

when I said "them" it was in reference to "people with those thoughts and feelings who exist in every corner of the earth."

I didn't mean "them" as "all Ukrainians." That's you twisting things around.

And, just a friendly PSA - I'm fucking tired of being accused of parroting Russian propaganda. Please cut that out. I've condemned Russia more than anyone. That part is easy for us all right now, right?

But I've also condemned nazis more than anyone. I dunno why that part is so difficult for some of you guys.

I'll cut it out when you stop doing it. Just because it's not your intent doesn't mean that isn't what is happening.

[ousdahl]

stop doing what?

stop expressing concern over nazis?

sorry, still concerned.

I think white supremacy is among the biggest existential threats to the world today.

and here's this fucked up thought I've expressed previously but no one considered: I still think Merica is a big enough player on the world stage to end the Russia-Ukraine conflict like two months ago, if we wanted to. But we...don't?

We'd rather escalate it, and label anyone who even questions it as a bad-guy-propaganda-bot.

Or, would anyone like to argue Merica is NOT a big enough player, and just don't have that kind of pull?

[TDub]

good lord...we're still doing this?

[jhawks99]

Apparently.

[MICHHAWK]

if nothing else, uncle joe can use the war in ukraine to distract the simpletons from the job he is doing domestically. the red head was a master at it. jean pierre is tbd.

[ousdahl]

from 2018: a good 4 years before anyone accused Qusdahl of being a Russian spambot:

https://khanna.house.gov/media/press-re ... ism-europe


from 2016:

https://www.jpost.com/Diaspora/US-lifts ... tia-441884

https://www.thenation.com/article/polit ... ding-bill/ (passed the House by unanimous vote?!)


2014:

https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/ukrai ... rs-n198961


...

there's all sorts of shit out there about this. It's that it was just never a bigger story until it was, and once it was, anyone concerned about it is ridiculed as a bad-guy sympathizer.

[twocoach]

stop doing what?

stop expressing concern over nazis?

sorry, still concerned.

I think white supremacy is among the biggest existential threats to the world today.

and here's this fucked up thought I've expressed previously but no one considered: I still think Merica is a big enough player on the world stage to end the Russia-Ukraine conflict like two months ago, if we wanted to. But we...don't?

We'd rather escalate it, and label anyone who even questions it as a bad-guy-propaganda-bot.

Or, would anyone like to argue Merica is NOT a big enough player, and just don't have that kind of pull?

I'd love to hear your solution to ending this war that all of the experts in the US military have not figured out yet as well as your procedures on how to tell which Ukrainian military forces are and are not Nazis so we can be sure to only arm the "good ones".

[twocoach]

from 2018: a good 4 years before anyone accused Qusdahl of being a Russian spambot:

https://khanna.house.gov/media/press-re ... ism-europe


from 2016:

https://www.jpost.com/Diaspora/US-lifts ... tia-441884

https://www.thenation.com/article/polit ... ding-bill/ (passed the House by unanimous vote?!)


2014:

https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/ukrai ... rs-n198961


...

there's all sorts of shit out there about this. It's that it was just never a bigger story until it was, and once it was, anyone concerned about it is ridiculed as a bad-guy sympathizer.

No one is saying these people don't exist. No one is saying it isn't a problem. It just has nothing to do with this war. It isn't why Russia invaded and it shouldn't in my opinion be considered when deciding whether or not we should help these people.

[KUTradition]

^^^^

[ousdahl]

Apparently.

sorry.

99, I'd like to at least give you credit for not personally attacking me every step of the way in this thread.

I'm not trying to play any victim card. But when I'm accused of being a Russian spam bot over and over again, I guess I feel compelled to wanna speak out otherwise.

(If I repeatedly accused twocoach of being a nazi, he too would probably wanna speak out otherwise...well, maybe not)

but yeah, this shit's all a bummer. Fuck war. That's why I'm passionate in speaking against it. I'm bummed about what a lack of anti-war sentiment there is in Merica. Anti-war protestors took to the Russian streets by the thousands, yet here, the protests are few and far between. And if any anti-war anyone does speak up, they tend to get the Qusdahl treatment.

I guess I'd hoped we could collectively consider some broader worldview here, consider just how significantly propaganda affects all of us, and maybe even work toward deprogramming our minds to so quickly just accept war and wartime narratives.

but it's a difficult conversation to have.

[ousdahl]

stop doing what?

stop expressing concern over nazis?

sorry, still concerned.

I think white supremacy is among the biggest existential threats to the world today.

and here's this fucked up thought I've expressed previously but no one considered: I still think Merica is a big enough player on the world stage to end the Russia-Ukraine conflict like two months ago, if we wanted to. But we...don't?

We'd rather escalate it, and label anyone who even questions it as a bad-guy-propaganda-bot.

Or, would anyone like to argue Merica is NOT a big enough player, and just don't have that kind of pull?

I'd love to hear your solution to ending this war that all of the experts in the US military have not figured out yet as well as your procedures on how to tell which Ukrainian military forces are and are not Nazis so we can be sure to only arm the "good ones".

If Biden came out and offered something to the effect of, "hey Putin we'll deescalate the whole blindly arming your "isn't full of choirboys" neighbors if you deescalate the whole invasion thing," I think it might go a long way.

You know, with the key operative being "deescalate." Cuz I don't think you can fight fire with fire. And when Putin (fuck him) escalated the threat of invasion and we responded with our own escalatory "fuck you bro now we're sending even MORE weapons," I just don't think that helped.

Again, think Cuban Missile Crisis.

[twocoach]

stop doing what?

stop expressing concern over nazis?

sorry, still concerned.

I think white supremacy is among the biggest existential threats to the world today.

and here's this fucked up thought I've expressed previously but no one considered: I still think Merica is a big enough player on the world stage to end the Russia-Ukraine conflict like two months ago, if we wanted to. But we...don't?

We'd rather escalate it, and label anyone who even questions it as a bad-guy-propaganda-bot.

Or, would anyone like to argue Merica is NOT a big enough player, and just don't have that kind of pull?

I'd love to hear your solution to ending this war that all of the experts in the US military have not figured out yet as well as your procedures on how to tell which Ukrainian military forces are and are not Nazis so we can be sure to only arm the "good ones".

If Biden came out and offered something to the effect of, "hey Putin we'll deescalate the whole blindly arming your "isn't full of choirboys" neighbors if you deescalate the whole invasion thing," I think it might go a long way.

You know, with the key operative being "deescalate." Cuz I don't think you can fight fire with fire. And when Putin (fuck him) escalated the threat of invasion and we responded with our own escalatory "fuck you bro now we're sending even MORE weapons," I just don't think that helped.

Again, think Cuban Missile Crisis.

I feel fairly confident that someone behind the scenes in the US Gov't. has told the Russians that we will stop arming Ukraine if the Russians stop the invasion. In fact, I would assume that would be one of the very first things to be said.

Come on. Next we can solve the mass shooting problem plaguing America by doing a PSA asking people to please not shoot other people.

[ousdahl]

do you have a link or an official statement or anything at all to back this up?

Or do you just feel fairly confident on just like some kind of hunch?

[twocoach]

do you have a link or an official statement or anything at all to back this up?

Or do you just feel fairly confident on just like some kind of hunch?

What do you think these people's JOBS are? The US sent a formal proposal back in January. The Russians responded. They do not provide the details included in these proposals as they deem it "unproductive to the discussions". I am sure that a number of counterproposals have followed. It's called the State Department.

https://www.business-standard.com/artic ... 118_1.html

[ousdahl]

from 2018: a good 4 years before anyone accused Qusdahl of being a Russian spambot:

https://khanna.house.gov/media/press-re ... ism-europe


from 2016:

https://www.jpost.com/Diaspora/US-lifts ... tia-441884

https://www.thenation.com/article/polit ... ding-bill/ (passed the House by unanimous vote?!)


2014:

https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/ukrai ... rs-n198961


...

there's all sorts of shit out there about this. It's that it was just never a bigger story until it was, and once it was, anyone concerned about it is ridiculed as a bad-guy sympathizer.

No one is saying these people don't exist. No one is saying it isn't a problem. It just has nothing to do with this war. It isn't why Russia invaded and it shouldn't in my opinion be considered when deciding whether or not we should help these people.

dude, every time I tried to point out these people exist, and that they're a problem, I've been ridiculed as a Putin parrot, over and over again. So, just the fact you admit it now, is progress?

But, how does a rising threat of militant nazis in Ukraine not have anything to do with the war in Ukraine?

Bear in mind, these nazis aren't just some fringe civilians, these nazis are openly operating among the Ukrainian government and military ranks.

There's been allegations against Ukrainian forces, both civilian and state/military, of the slaughter of, among others - Jews, Poles, Romani, and (spambot alert!) ethnic Russians too. (fuck the Russian government, I'm trying to speak from a people's perspective here).

I just think we should thoroughly vet who's getting weapons paid for by you and me, and what they're doing with them. Don't you? How is it "helping" Ukraine if our weapons are ultimately used to perpetrate even more war crimes? Why the fuck should nazis get the benefit of the doubt?

It just seems dangerous to downplay the threat of nazis. Literal fucking nazis! The world downplayed the threat of nazis in the 30s too, and look how that ended up.

[ousdahl]

do you have a link or an official statement or anything at all to back this up?

Or do you just feel fairly confident on just like some kind of hunch?

What do you think these people's JOBS are? The US sent a formal proposal back in January. The Russians responded. They do not provide the details included in these proposals as they deem it "unproductive to the discussions". I am sure that a number of counterproposals have followed. It's called the State Department.

https://www.business-standard.com/artic ... 118_1.html

I wish this article actually gave some details on the terms.

I know that Russia has for years requested that NATO dial back militant operations in eastern Europe. Now I don't want to concede a thing to Putin either because fuck him, but I do like the idea of any dialing back of military operations. I also struggle to understand what NATO is even doing in eastern Europe, and what those operations do to benefit me or Mich or any other peoples.

So, if I may ask you: if you were the POTUS, and Putin called you up and said "I'll knock off this Ukraine invasion if you and your pals at NATO knock off the aggression in eastern Europe," would you take that deal?