TDub wrote: ↑Mon Jul 11, 2022 2:43 pm
nobody has said nazis arent a problem, the discussion has revolved around the legitimacy of that as a reason to invade. This article indicates that, not only was it not the driving force behind invasion, but that Putin cultivated that problem as a potential origin story for his desires.
yeah, no, one has come out and said "nazis aren't a problem," not as explicitly as that. Cuz of course they haven't. But man has there otherwise been a lot of downplaying and sidestepping and avoiding addressing the issue of nazis, though.
I don't recall discussion around the legitimacy of that as a reason to invade. Or rather, there wasn't much of a discussion, since as far as I recall, everyone agrees that Putin's "de-nazify" rhetoric was bullshit, and not a legitimate reason to invade.
I recall the discussion, and much of the drama in this thread, more so revolving around precisely what sort of presence nazis have in Ukraine, and whether your and my tax dollars were furnishing weapons for them. But that's a difficult discussion to have, I know!
Have we fallen into a mesmerized state that makes us accept as inevitable that which is inferior or detrimental, as though having lost the will or the vision to demand that which is good?
Have we fallen into a mesmerized state that makes us accept as inevitable that which is inferior or detrimental, as though having lost the will or the vision to demand that which is good?
as for propaganda, it seems to have many of the elements:
- the author identifies herself as "a Kyiv-based journalist working for Ukrainian and international media, I am very much a representative of the professional class, what many may call my country’s “liberal elite.” My circle of friends and I discuss democracy, accountability, and the rule of law..."
I'm curious about those discussions! I want in on those discussions! Heck, is discussing democracy accountability and rule of law kind of like what we do here on the pols bored? And are Ukrainian elites really that much hipper than our own western oligarchs? Cuz most of the "elite" types I know mostly just talk about their own material excesses, and golf.
And she's from Kyiv, but then starts making her case based on...anecdotes from random folks around eastern Ukraine? She uses the term "pseudo-focus groups," which I feel is some Orwellian doublespeak for "I just went and asked a few random folks." I know she mentions she can't conduct more proper research because of the war, but if that's the case, then why should these pseudo-focus groups pass as proper journalism?
Not that I want to invalidate those accounts completely, but bear in mind, Ukraine is a big country and such...that's analogous with some liberal elite journalist from like NYC or LA going to flyover country and taking polls at the mall with Mich...then using that to speak with authority about international politics...
- the way it acknowledges Ukraine's corruption, then kinda glosses it over, and sorta suggests it's NBD any more? Did it go away? everybody's suddenly on the same page cuz of an invasion? Heck maybe! Remember how united the United States was after 9/11. For at least a few minutes.
- I'd ask whether this is meant to vilify Russia, cuz overwhelmingly it seems to, but she also, in some roundabout way, gives Russia credit for making Ukraine more democratic? At least it's not as shamelessly dehumanizing to the Russian people as some of the other shit posted in this thread. (and Qusdahl makes a point to distinguish the Russian state with the Russian people...it's not like Putin speaks for all of them, oh and fuck him)
- the way she makes it all seem so kumbaya in Ukraine. Everybody getting along with everybody! Except the Russians, even though she's also strangely giving the Russian invasion credit for this new progressive liberal wokeness in Ukraine or whatever. Politicians are cooperating, and local businesses are helping, and everybody's cool now!
even the sub-headline reeks of Orwell: "What were once perceived to be weaknesses are turning out to be advantages." YESSSS! And war is peace and freedom is slavery!
I could go on.
But, I dunno, I guess the article still kinda left me with more questions than answers.
KUTradition wrote: ↑Sun Jul 17, 2022 7:56 pm
i’m some ways, they’ve got a one-up on the US
how so?
I was gonna dissect that article as a propaganda piece, but now I'm curious!
Zelenski canning the corrupt seems like an apt example
but, i was initially referring to the stark lack of selfishness as evidenced by the willingness of neighbors to put their own well being aside for the greater good of their community
granted, they’re in exceptional times and i’m sure there are situations that run counter to that narrative, but i think by and large there has been a greater demonstration of altruistic practices than we tend to see here
Have we fallen into a mesmerized state that makes us accept as inevitable that which is inferior or detrimental, as though having lost the will or the vision to demand that which is good?
