Israel/Palestine

[ousdahl]

yeah, me neither.

with most things, the truth tends to be somewhere in between.

especially with things as historically divisive as Israeli-Palestinian conflicts

[Mjl]

yeah, me neither.

with most things, the truth tends to be somewhere in between.

especially with things as historically divisive as Israeli-Palestinian conflicts

I strongly, strongly disagree with this. It's a gross oversimplification

[Deleted User 863]

The truth is the truth.

[ousdahl]

yeah, me neither.

with most things, the truth tends to be somewhere in between.

especially with things as historically divisive as Israeli-Palestinian conflicts

I strongly, strongly disagree with this. It's a gross oversimplification

should I even ask?

[Cascadia]

yeah, me neither.

with most things, the truth tends to be somewhere in between.

especially with things as historically divisive as Israeli-Palestinian conflicts

I strongly, strongly disagree with this. It's a gross oversimplification

should I even ask?

No, he’s too emotional

[TDub]

[Mjl]

yeah, me neither.

with most things, the truth tends to be somewhere in between.

especially with things as historically divisive as Israeli-Palestinian conflicts

I strongly, strongly disagree with this. It's a gross oversimplification

should I even ask?

It's saying "rather than trying to discern good information from bad and educating myself about this, I'm just going to conclusively say that the truth must be in the middle." And then what you tend to do is tell yourself that is the right answer and thus anyone taking a side must be an idiot, assuming they are as ignorant as you.

[ousdahl]

[Mjl]

Observation after being at the wall a couple days ago.

When Palestinians are throwing rocks from Al Aqsa complex at the people at the wall... Realize that's a long way down. A rock thrown from that height, if it hits someone in the head, will kill them. It's attempted murder. When Israeli police come and clear the complex when it's happening, realize they are preventing people who just showed up to say a prayer from being killed.

[ousdahl]

What a shame.

[ousdahl]

Qusdahl memes freaking out about more apparent bombings on the Gaza Strip.

Stay safe mjl.

[Mjl]

Thanks Ous. Completely selfishly, we timed our little vacation to the UAE perfectly, by luck. We left Israel right before the rockets started and got back last night, just an hour after the sirens were sounding in Tel Aviv.

It's the two million residents of the Gaza Strip that I worry about. It's awful what they have to go through. And the world doesn't seem to give a damn, they just want to make Israel look like bad guys or make Palestinians look like bad guys. And I don't know what the solution is. You have a terrorist organization with the stated goal of wiping out Israel in charge after they killed the Palestinian leadership there. And an Iranian-backed terrorist organization (PIJ) that Hamas isn't exactly going to stop. They have plenty of money but use it on weapons and tunnels instead of bomb shelters.

The irony there is that if they used the money to build shelters instead of for things intended to kill civilians, they wouldn't need those shelters.

Meanwhile, 2 million Gazans live in shitty conditions and have to run to god-knows-where anytime some terrorist assholes decide to set up rocket launchers near where they happen to be. And then you have the ones that don't get a warning of any kind when a PIJ or Hamas rocket doesn't make it to Israel.

[twocoach]

Thanks Ous. Completely selfishly, we timed our little vacation to the UAE perfectly, by luck. We left Israel right before the rockets started and got back last night, just an hour after the sirens were sounding in Tel Aviv.

It's the two million residents of the Gaza Strip that I worry about. It's awful what they have to go through. And the world doesn't seem to give a damn, they just want to make Israel look like bad guys or make Palestinians look like bad guys. And I don't know what the solution is. You have a terrorist organization with the stated goal of wiping out Israel in charge after they killed the Palestinian leadership there. And an Iranian-backed terrorist organization (PIJ) that Hamas isn't exactly going to stop. They have plenty of money but use it on weapons and tunnels instead of bomb shelters.

The irony there is that if they used the money to build shelters instead of for things intended to kill civilians, they wouldn't need those shelters.

Meanwhile, 2 million Gazans live in shitty conditions and have to run to god-knows-where anytime some terrorist assholes decide to set up rocket launchers near where they happen to be. And then you have the ones that don't get a warning of any kind when a PIJ or Hamas rocket doesn't make it to Israel.

It's hard for many in the US to fathom the size and scope of what is going on over there. The Gaza Strip as currently defined is only about 141 square miles, which is about the same size as Omaha. I can't wrap my brain around what it would be like for the relatively small city I live in to be sectioned off by fencing and constantly dealing with rockets, explosions and gunfire. It's a level of insanity that most Americans seem to shrug off as "they have always been at war and will always be at war".

[RainbowsandUnicorns]

As someone who has been to Sderot, met with family members who have lost loved ones, met with military leaders, and has an allegiance to Israel, I can and will say I do NOT feel the Israelis are not without fault for the "conflict".
Of course they are at fault in some ways and there are things they do (and don't do) that I in no way support nor defend.
That being said, anyone with half a brain can and should realize that there is not a single good thing about Palestinian terrorists and their desire to wipeout an entire country.
People talk about Israel not showing restraint in regards to killing innocent Palestinians. Yes, it's horrible and indefensible but the majority of the time the Israelis are truly attempting to take out "bad guys" (terrorists) in the process.
99.5 times out of 100 the Palestinian terrorists are trying to take out "good guys" (citizens).

Moral of the story is... I feel this is a conflict that will continue as long as both countries continue to exist in their current state of being - and both sides are at fault for it.

[twocoach]

As someone who has been to Sderot, met with family members who have lost loved ones, met with military leaders, and has an allegiance to Israel, I can and will say I do NOT feel the Israelis are not without fault for the "conflict".
Of course they are at fault in some ways and there are things they do (and don't do) that I in no way support nor defend.
That being said, anyone with half a brain can and should realize that there is not a single good thing about Palestinian terrorists and their desire to wipeout an entire country.
People talk about Israel not showing restraint in regards to killing innocent Palestinians. Yes, it's horrible and indefensible but the majority of the time the Israelis are truly attempting to take out "bad guys" (terrorists) in the process.
99.5 times out of 100 the Palestinian terrorists are trying to take out "good guys" (citizens).

Moral of the story is... I feel this is a conflict that will continue as long as both countries continue to exist in their current state of being - and both sides are at fault for it.

I agree. It's a never ending war that will continue so long as each group claims that they should be the rightful inhabitants of that chosen strip of land and each group continues to take hostile action against the other. I empathize for those who had the misfortune of being born into that existence. That is a level of stress, fear and sadness that I wish on no one.

[Mjl]

I have hope now that Bibi is gone. Lapid is doing it the right way, improving relations with other Arab nations, trying to get them to pressure the PA or at least change the dialog.

Two keys to that. One, Saudi Arabia is the most important piece. If they can be added to the Abraham Accord countries that would be huge. The second part is acting quickly... Because peace with Saudi Arabia is probably going to require giving up East Jerusalem, and the Orthodox, who breed a LOT, will never support that. Need to act before they are a higher percentage of the population.

Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Bahrain, UAE, Egypt - get them all pushing the PA, give Area B to Palestine, probably Area C too, and probably East Jerusalem. In return, the PA, with the help of the Arab nations, needs to prove they can get rid of Hamas and PIJ. Because last time Israel destroyed their own citizens homes and required them to all move out, we ended up with today's Gaza.

[twocoach]

I have hope now that Bibi is gone. Lapid is doing it the right way, improving relations with other Arab nations, trying to get them to pressure the PA or at least change the dialog.

Two keys to that. One, Saudi Arabia is the most important piece. If they can be added to the Abraham Accord countries that would be huge. The second part is acting quickly... Because peace with Saudi Arabia is probably going to require giving up East Jerusalem, and the Orthodox, who breed a LOT, will never support that. Need to act before they are a higher percentage of the population.

Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Bahrain, UAE, Egypt - get them all pushing the PA, give Area B to Palestine, probably Area C too, and probably East Jerusalem. In return, the PA, with the help of the Arab nations, needs to prove they can get rid of Hamas and PIJ. Because last time Israel destroyed their own citizens homes and required them to all move out, we ended up with today's Gaza.

Needing Saudi Arabia to make something work will always make me nervous. They do not function like a normal country.

[zsn]

I have hope now that Bibi is gone. Lapid is doing it the right way, improving relations with other Arab nations, trying to get them to pressure the PA or at least change the dialog.

Two keys to that. One, Saudi Arabia is the most important piece. If they can be added to the Abraham Accord countries that would be huge. The second part is acting quickly... Because peace with Saudi Arabia is probably going to require giving up East Jerusalem, and the Orthodox, who breed a LOT, will never support that. Need to act before they are a higher percentage of the population.

Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Bahrain, UAE, Egypt - get them all pushing the PA, give Area B to Palestine, probably Area C too, and probably East Jerusalem. In return, the PA, with the help of the Arab nations, needs to prove they can get rid of Hamas and PIJ. Because last time Israel destroyed their own citizens homes and required them to all move out, we ended up with today's Gaza.

Didn’t we come very close to making the above-described happen during the mid-90s until someone (one person, essentially) put the kibosh on the whole thing? IIRC the agreement was led by Arafat and Barak

[Mjl]

Yep, Arafat didn't sign at the last minute

[Mjl]

Heading to Jerusalem right now, after four Americans and three Israelis were shot by terrorists there last night right near where we are heading. Way more soldiers with guns on the train today than usual - which is almost comforting? I am understanding better how terrorist attacks help the right wing here.