Let’s have a war!

[twocoach]

I'd personally prefer we be very cautious about any form of ethno-fascism rather than come up with reasons to downplay it, but yea, maybe there's something lost in translation or something.

The first thing I did when you mentioned their Article 16 was to do a google search and read a few things about it, including a translation that had all of the words in English. If you were being cautious, you would have done the same.

I made no attempt to downplay ethno-fascism as the Article has nothing to do with ethno-fascism at all. There isn't anything lost in translation. You just made an assumption without further investigation and your assumption was wrong. It's no more complicated or nuanced than that.

[ousdahl]

could you share what you found?

Cuz I google searched it too, including searching for a Ukrainian language copy through the google translator back to English.

I haven't found any real insight or analysis into that particular article or its language, at least on the googler, but maybe I missed something.

cuz, perhaps it IS more complicated or nuanced than that. Bear in mind, even in the west, Ukraine was for years labeled as having a nazi problem (right up until the West collectively, and without any complication or nuance, declared Ukraine the "good guys," and started giving even more weapons to them than we did before)

and, forgive me if I just get nervous about a country with a known nazi problem putting shit about state duty to save their gene pool.

[twocoach]

could you share what you found?

Cuz I google searched it too, including searching for a Ukrainian language copy through the google translator back to English.

I haven't found any real insight or analysis into that particular article or its language, at least on the googler, but maybe I missed something.

cuz, perhaps it IS more complicated or nuanced than that. Bear in mind, even in the west, Ukraine was for years labeled as having a nazi problem (right up until the West collectively, and without any complication or nuance, declared Ukraine the "good guys," and started giving even more weapons to them than we did before)

and, forgive me if I just get nervous about a country with a known nazi problem putting shit about state duty to save their gene pool.

https://www.refworld.org/pdfid/44a280124.pdf

https://unece.org/fileadmin/DAM/hlm/prg ... tion.e.pdf

You're just hung up on some red flag words. This has nothing to do with any of the stuff you're talking about.

[ousdahl]

one link says "to preserve the gene pool of the Ukrainian people" and the other says "preserving the gene pool of the Ukrainian people," but that's otherwise the same stuff I found, and doesn't really offer a much deeper understanding of the article.

I'm looking for insight and analysis.

Aren't there some journalists or constitutional scholars or some someones who have dissected that? Do other countries have "gene pool" language in their constitutions? Is there any linguist expert type who can explain the Ukrainian word or term for "gene pool" may actually be something lost in translation?

Cuz, yea, I am hung up on some red flag words. But I think it may have much to do with much of the stuff I'm talking about - namely, ethno-fascism, and how I'm concerned about your and my tax dollars arming as much.

[twocoach]

one link says "to preserve the gene pool of the Ukrainian people" and the other says "preserving the gene pool of the Ukrainian people," but that's otherwise the same stuff I found, and doesn't really offer a much deeper understanding of the article.

I'm looking for insight and analysis.

Aren't there some journalists or constitutional scholars or some someones who have dissected that? Do other countries have "gene pool" language in their constitutions? Is there any linguist expert type who can explain the Ukrainian word or term for "gene pool" may actually be something lost in translation?

Cuz, yea, I am hung up on some red flag words. But I think it may have much to do with much of the stuff I'm talking about - namely, ethno-fascism, and how I'm concerned about your and my tax dollars arming as much.

You should probably look at the entire sentence and not just half of it. Good luck.

[KUTradition]

wait, i thought this was all about nazis?

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... iv-s-gains

[ousdahl]

what do the people of the so-called Donetsk and Luhansk People’s Republics want?

as well as the people of the Kherson and Zaporizhzhia regions

[KUTradition]

what do the people of the so-called Donetsk and Luhansk People’s Republics want?

as well as the people of the Kherson and Zaporizhzhia regions

that’s not how it works

just as in the US, there is a legal mechanism for secession in Ukraine

but don’t let that stop you from being willfully blind to putin’s misdirection

[ousdahl]

thanks for another gaslight bro.

My point is, that article mentions what Merica thinks is best for those regions, and what Russia thinks is best for those regions, and what France thinks is best for those regions, and what Germany thinks is best for those regions, and what England thinks is best for those regions

but no one seems to want to just ask what the people of those regions think is best for those regions.

why shouldn't we?

are we really better off letting a bunch of historical imperial powers decide for them? If so, how do we decide which imperial power is the one who should get to decide?

the article mentions letting the people of these regions vote their own destiny. In an of itself, without getting into the legal technicalities, are you opposed to letting the people have their own say? Or are they allowed to exist not as people of their own independent identity, but only as pawns in some bigger international game?

if we ARE to get into the legal technicalities and whatnot, yea, the whole vote thing might be dubious. Perhaps there's a question of, if Merica really wants to be the harbingers of "freedom and democracy" that we wanna be, shouldn't we be advocating for a legitimate and legal vote for these peoples? Rather than advocating for *checks notes* little more than just blindly throwing more and more weapons at it?

...and, don't get me wrong! I don't wanna concede anything to Russia either!

oh, and speaking of propaganda, I dunno how much I trust an article that leads off with terms like "sham" in the very first sentence. Is that language really of the highest journalistic integrity? I'm skeptical of everything, and when I hear language like that, it strikes me as likely more propaganda yet.

[KUTradition]

gaslighting? lol

Eukraine has a constitution…if the people of Eukraine vote to change that constitution, so be it

i don’t really care one way or the other

what bothers me is that, despite ample evidence that the nazi justification was a farce, you’re still doubling down

[KUTradition]

and how can you put legal technicalities aside?

they absolutely matter and are entirely relevant

should cliven bundy and his ilk be allowed to form their own country just because they want to, with zero regard for constitutional law?

[KUTradition]

and yeah, i suppose we shoulda just stayed out and let putin do as he chooses

former KGB are known for their morality and ethical behavior

jfc

[ousdahl]

and what bothers me is that, despite ample evidence that there really is a nazi problem, you're still doubling down on...what, again?

I've never once said I supported Russia's invasion, said I think they're fighting any good fight, said I think they're actually trying to de-nazify Ukraine, said that the presence of nazis in Ukraine justify's Russia's aggression, or said that the answer to this violence is more violence yet.

And I CERTAINLY have never doubled down on any of that!

Again, that's you trying to gaslight me. At this point I expect the TDub types to let some Qusdahl boogeyman live in their minds...sigh. But come on Trad, be better than that.

cuz AGAIN! I don't know how many times I have to say this!

Both of these things can be true:

- Russia's rhetoric is bullshit
- Ukraine has a nazi problem either way

so many credible western sources, including so many authorities within our own Merican gummint, expressed concern about radical extremist ethno-nationalism bullshit in Ukraine for years. I've provided ample examples of as much in this very thread. If you failed to or refuse to consider them, perhaps it's YOU who is being willfully blind.

Of course, all that concern was there up until Russia's invasion, at which point we're all supposed to shrug all that concern off in favor of oversimplified good guy bad guy narratives and an end game of little more than, weapons weapons weapons!

Yes, Ukraine has a constitution (gene pool lulz), but I think the big question we should be asking, and I've been trying to ask, is some question of actual greater understanding of Ukraine and its peoples.

It's like we AREN'T supposed to understand them too well! We're supposed to accept some view of Ukraine as one big happy homogenous country of "freedom fighters," and completely disregard the infighting that's gone on there for years, completely disregard the differences between eastern and western Ukraine, completely disregard the violence (largely based on ethnic differences...where have we heard this before?), and completely disregard that your and my own tax dollars have done little more for the place than keep enabling and escalating and provoking even more violence yet.

But Jesus fucking Christ dude, if we really aren't supposed to discuss any of this, and aren't able to discuss any of this without getting this pissed off at one another, what a shame. Maybe the bad guys have already won.

[ousdahl]

and yeah, i suppose we shoulda just stayed out and let putin do as he chooses

former KGB are known for their morality and ethical behavior

jfc

Do you think Merica is a good example of morality and ethical behavior?

And I know you'll give me shit for this too, but I think there's some question of whether Putin would have ever invaded if not for us arming his belligerent neighbors first, and doubling down every time we otherwise had the chance for more diplomatic measures.

[ousdahl]

and how can you put legal technicalities aside?

they absolutely matter and are entirely relevant

should cliven bundy and his ilk be allowed to form their own country just because they want to, with zero regard for constitutional law?

I meant putting the legal technicalities aside just for the sake of considering a free democratic vote in principle. Then I did get right into discussing the legal technicalities as soon as I made that point. Cuz yes they're relevant!

Do you mean to draw some analogy between the eastern Ukrainian peoples and Cliven Bundy? That actually may not be a bad analogy, in some sense.

But bear in mind, one big difference is, when Cliven Bundy was confronted by authorities armed with guns paid for by you and me, the Bundys were spared rather than slaughtered.

[KUTradition]

and what bothers me is that, despite ample evidence that there really is a nazi problem, you're still doubling down on...what, again?

I've never once said I supported Russia's invasion, said I think they're fighting any good fight, said I think they're actually trying to de-nazify Ukraine, said that the presence of nazis in Ukraine justify's Russia's aggression, or said that the answer to this violence is more violence yet.

And I CERTAINLY have never doubled down on any of that!

Again, that's you trying to gaslight me. At this point I expect the TDub types to let some Qusdahl boogeyman live in their minds...sigh. But come on Trad, be better than that.

cuz AGAIN! I don't know how many times I have to say this!

Both of these things can be true:

- Russia's rhetoric is bullshit
- Ukraine has a nazi problem either way

so many credible western sources, including so many authorities within our own Merican gummint, expressed concern about radical extremist ethno-nationalism bullshit in Ukraine for years. I've provided ample examples of as much in this very thread. If you failed to or refuse to consider them, perhaps it's YOU who is being willfully blind.

Of course, all that concern was there up until Russia's invasion, at which point we're all supposed to shrug all that concern off in favor of oversimplified good guy bad guy narratives and an end game of little more than, weapons weapons weapons!

Yes, Ukraine has a constitution (gene pool lulz), but I think the big question we should be asking, and I've been trying to ask, is some question of actual greater understanding of Ukraine and its peoples.

It's like we AREN'T supposed to understand them too well! We're supposed to accept some view of Ukraine as one big happy homogenous country of "freedom fighters," and completely disregard the infighting that's gone on there for years, completely disregard the differences between eastern and western Ukraine, completely disregard the violence (largely based on ethnic differences...where have we heard this before?), and completely disregard that your and my own tax dollars have done little more for the place than keep enabling and escalating and provoking even more violence yet.

But Jesus fucking Christ dude, if we really aren't supposed to discuss any of this, and aren't able to discuss any of this without getting this pissed off at one another, what a shame. Maybe the bad guys have already won.

jfc is right

i never denied there being a nazi problem

i did deny, and will continue to deny that THAT was the motivating factor for putin

if you really want to understand Ukrainians, maybe you should ask them directly?

i’m not pissed at all, just disappointed in you

[KUTradition]

and yeah, i suppose we shoulda just stayed out and let putin do as he chooses

former KGB are known for their morality and ethical behavior

jfc

Do you think Merica is a good example of morality and ethical behavior?

And I know you'll give me shit for this too, but I think there's some question of whether Putin would have ever invaded if not for us arming his belligerent neighbors first, and doubling down every time we otherwise had the chance for more diplomatic measures.

we’ve been over this

putin was bullying the region long before the Eukraine invasion

it’s like you’ve got selective memory loss

and of course we’ve got our own problems. how very putin/trump of you to point them out…smh

[KUTradition]

and seriously, dude…i’m on your side as far as being anti-MIC

but i’m also a realist

the US deciding to “play nice” and get out of the war business assures one thing: that some other power is going to fill that vacuum

tell me, which country do think would do a better job? (“no country” isn’t a legitimate answer since it isn’t grounds in reality)

[jhawks99]

Qousie, you have disappointed Traddie.

[KUTradition]

put another way, i don’t like the US being in these situations, but i prefer it over the most likely alternative scenarios