Evil Rich People

[Mjl]

Because non-Capitalist countries historically have been so good about taking care of the environment...

I don't think fix is to ditch capitalism. It's just that capitalism has become such a short sighted "make as much money as quickly as possible damn the consequences" venture that the failure to factor environmental impacts into their equation is costing many businesses more money in the long run. Companies take the MICH approach of "well, it doesn't directly affect me personally (while simultaneously being bummed that they developed skin cancer and their grocery bill is sky high thanks to shortages of water and too-high temperatures) so fuck the people that come after me".

non-Capitalist countries need to make money and stuff too. Democratic mostly-Capitalistic countries have been better (not to mean "good") about environmental issues than others. I think tying Capitalism to environmental issues isn't backed by data.

If you want to tie it to something political, my guess would be ranked choice voting could have the best correlation with governments implementing policies to help the environment.

[Deleted User 863]

Because non-Capitalist countries historically have been so good about taking care of the environment...

I don't think fix is to ditch capitalism. It's just that capitalism has become such a short sighted "make as much money as quickly as possible damn the consequences" venture that the failure to factor environmental impacts into their equation is costing many businesses more money in the long run. Companies take the MICH approach of "well, it doesn't directly affect me personally (while simultaneously being bummed that they developed skin cancer and their grocery bill is sky high thanks to shortages of water and too-high temperatures) so fuck the people that come after me".

non-Capitalist countries need to make money and stuff too. Democratic mostly-Capitalistic countries have been better (not to mean "good") about environmental issues than others. I think tying Capitalism to environmental issues isn't backed by data.

If you want to tie it to something political, my guess would be ranked choice voting could have the best correlation with governments implementing policies to help the environment.

This.

And this.

[ousdahl]

I think tying Capitalism to environmental issues isn't backed by data.

Is there any way to corroborate this thought?

[Mjl]

I think tying Capitalism to environmental issues isn't backed by data.

Is there any way to corroborate this thought?

I'd be interested in reading it but am too lazy atm to go any further than a single Google search that proved fruitless

[Deleted User 863]

The capitalism boogeyman.

LOL

It never ends.

[japhy]

I think tying Capitalism to environmental issues isn't backed by data.

Is there any way to corroborate this thought?

For any reasonable discussion of this first you have to agree on terms. Here is the Marxist stage theory of socio/economic development.

Marxist Stage Theory

Stage 1 – Primitive Communism

Men performed the same economic function – hunter gathering. They worked together in order to survive. There was no private property and there were no classes. Eventually the most successful hunter gatherers gained power and control over the others.

Stage 2 – Imperialism

The strong man ruled. He began by owning all the land but when threatened by outsiders, he would grant land to others in return for military services. A new land-owning aristocracy was therefore created.

Stage 3 – Feudalism

Land was owned by the aristocracy who exploited the peasantry who worked it. There was a surplus of food which the aristocracy sold to others – creating a class of merchants and capitalists who wanted to share political power.

Stage 4 – Capitalism

The wealthy merchants and factory owners (bourgeoisie) obtained political power and exploited the workers (proletariat). As the proletariat became politically aware they would rise up and overthrow the bourgeois government.

Stage 5 – Socialism

There would be a dictatorship of the proletariat as workers’ organisations re-distributed food, goods and services fairly according to need, and profits were shared by all. The middle classes would come to understand that equality was superior to private ownership.

Stage 6 – Communism

Everyone would join together for the common good. Money and government would no longer be needed and society would be class-less. As all countries reached this stage the world would become state-less and competition and wars would cease.

Next let's define the top 15 economies in the world by GDP.

United States: $20.89 trillion
China: $14.72 trillion
Japan: $5.06 trillion
Germany: $3.85 trillion
United Kingdom: $2.67 trillion
India: $2.66 trillion
France: $2.63 trillion
Italy: $1.89 trillion
Canada: $1.64 trillion
South Korea: $1.63 trillion
Russia: $1.48 trillion
Brazil: $1.44 trillion
Australia: $1.32 trillion
Spain: $1.28 trillion
Indonesia: $1.05 trillion

Please define them as to their stage according to Marxist theory.

[ousdahl]

I guess somewhere between imperialism and feudalism?

I'd say capitalism, except that the Merican people has taught us there's no such thing as an exploited proletariat. There's only temporarily embarrassed millionaires.

[japhy]

I guess somewhere between imperialism and feudalism?

I'd say capitalism, except that the Merican people has taught us there's no such thing as an exploited proletariat. There's only temporarily embarrassed millionaires.

All of these countries are somewhere between imperialism and feudalism?

Seriously?

Some of them have already gone through the process of prols rising up and overthrowing the bourgeoisie. And those regressed to stages 2 and 3?

[ousdahl]

re: capitalism and environmental issues, I feel like I once had a much better answer for this, but, let's take a stab...

if we rework systems to provide goods and services more fairly, based on things like need, and common good, then perhaps that system would be better equipped to address the NEED of curbing environmental issues.

cuz capitalism is a system that provides goods and services based more on...what? Consumer culture? Concentration of wealth? Profit potential? And usually in the most short-sighted status quo ways possible?

So as far as I can tell - if we're gonna sincerely address environmental issues, we either need to make the curbing of environmental issues more profitable, or, yea, just overhaul the system to something based more on common good and meeting basic needs.

(heck, hasn't the for-profit free market capitalist oil industry known for decades that their product was destroying the earth? How's that working out for us?)

[ousdahl]

I guess somewhere between imperialism and feudalism?

I'd say capitalism, except that the Merican people has taught us there's no such thing as an exploited proletariat. There's only temporarily embarrassed millionaires.

All of these countries are somewhere between imperialism and feudalism?

Seriously?

Some of them have already gone through the process of prols rising up and overthrowing the bourgeoisie. And those regressed to stages 2 and 3?

it was a temporarily embarrassed millionaire joke.

But yes, I think given the Merican culture of Stanning for capitalism so hard it's practically religious dogma, I think our country is more likely to regress to some kinda Neo-feudalism, than we are to ever actually figure out systems based on common good and meeting basic needs.

Now who's ready for more factory towns!

[japhy]

re: capitalism and environmental issues, I feel like I once had a much better answer for this, but, let's take a stab...

if we rework systems to provide goods and services more fairly, based on things like need, and common good, then perhaps that system would be better equipped to address the NEED of curbing environmental issues.

cuz capitalism is a system that provides goods and services based more on...what? Consumer culture? Concentration of wealth? Profit potential? And usually in the most short-sighted status quo ways possible?

So as far as I can tell - if we're gonna sincerely address environmental issues, we either need to make the curbing of environmental issues more profitable, or, yea, just overhaul the system to something based more on common good and meeting basic needs.

(heck, hasn't the for-profit free market capitalist oil industry known for decades that their product was destroying the earth? How's that working out for us?)

That wasn't the question.

Which of these countries are capitalist, socialist and communist? You can't compare actual results if you can't agree on which systems these economies represent and then compare their results/progress/opportunities.

[ousdahl]

it's like this convo I head the other day with Beav.

He blurts out, "you know, I actually think you make a lot of good points with a lot of your lefty whining, but at some point you're just too radical for me."

what's too radical?

Oh...uh...I...um...I guess, like, the whole thing about "the workers owning the means of production." I think it's a bad idea to just let all the idiots have a say."

So you'd rather just let a concentrated small handful of idiots have the say for everyone else instead?

" ... "

do you really trust the average CEO to act in best interests of the average workers?

" ... "

and if you don't want to let all the idiots have a say in economic matters, then are you in favor of scrapping democracy in favor of concentrating the say to just one dictator idiot for governmanal matters?

" ... "

Who's too radical, again?

[japhy]

Why won't you answer the question?

[ousdahl]

you want me to define each of 15 countries in terms of their stage in Marxist theory?

I dunno.

By what metrics?

Without looking it up, I'm pretty sure each of those countries EXCEPT for Merica has some kinda universal healthcare, so they're further along as some kinda socialist commies than the US, I guess?

What should we do about that? Start a war with them? Maybe embargo, or stage a coup?

I dunno where you're going with this.

[japhy]

you want me to define each of 15 countries in terms of their stage in Marxist theory?

By what metrics?

I dunno where you're going with this.

I will make it simpler for you, just define US, China, Japan, Germany and Russia.

Trust the process.....

[ousdahl]

China: universal healthcare
Japan: universal healthare
Germany: universal healthcare
Russia: universal healthcare
US: fuck you prole, rub some dirt on it and get back to work!

[japhy]

I thought you wanted a reasoned conversation.

How is universal healthcare the only delineator between economic systems? What economic system does universal healthcare fall under?

[KUTradition]

re: capitalism and environmental issues, I feel like I once had a much better answer for this, but, let's take a stab...

if we rework systems to provide goods and services more fairly, based on things like need, and common good, then perhaps that system would be better equipped to address the NEED of curbing environmental issues.

cuz capitalism is a system that provides goods and services based more on...what? Consumer culture? Concentration of wealth? Profit potential? And usually in the most short-sighted status quo ways possible?

So as far as I can tell - if we're gonna sincerely address environmental issues, we either need to make the curbing of environmental issues more profitable, or, yea, just overhaul the system to something based more on common good and meeting basic needs.

(heck, hasn't the for-profit free market capitalist oil industry known for decades that their product was destroying the earth? How's that working out for us?)

no mention about the demand side of things?

just spit-balling here, but what if some critical mass of CONSUMERS just decided they were no longer going to support those capitalist entities most responsible for environmental destruction?

all that really requires is effective education, as well as suitable and “green” alternatives (which should come if the demand is high enough)

i’d argue that it’s the US public that stands in the way of better environmental policies more so than capitalism itself

[ousdahl]

I thought you wanted a reasoned conversation.

How is universal healthcare the only delineator between economic systems? What economic system does universal healthcare fall under?

are there other metrics you prefer?

I just picked universal healthcare cuz I think it IS one of those delineators that might suggest a more socialist/commie system.

But again, I dunno where you're going with this.

I'm all for reasoned conversation, but it's just difficult to do when you're being so CoyDC about it.

What's your point here? Why'd you post the top 15 economies by GDP and expect me to have all these answers for you?

[Deleted User 863]

Why won't you answer the question?

You know exactly why.