Let’s have a war!
Re: Let’s have a war!
speaking of certain other posters I expect it much more so from...
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KUTradition
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Re: Let’s have a war!
yes, i know you’ve condemned russiaousdahl wrote: ↑Fri Dec 02, 2022 1:29 pmI admit, I expect it much more so from...uh, certain other posters. But with you, I think you're much brighter, and much more open-minded as a whole. So, this is difficult, and frankly a little surprising, to have to say:
Stop only hearing what you wanna hear!
ousdahl wrote: ↑Thu Apr 14, 2022 2:03 pmcuz it was bullshit all along?KUTradition wrote: ↑Thu Apr 14, 2022 1:56 pm odd
putin has completely stopped with the nazi rhetoric
wonder why…Qusdahl wrote: ↑Wed Mar 09, 2022 3:42 pm
But, again, Russian propaganda can be bullshit...
And as scaru as Russian propaganda may be, I’m also scared of how many of you guys don’t even seem to have considered how much western pro-war propaganda we’re inevitably exposed to right now, and grew up consuming.
The solution, I think, is less a “good guy bad guy pick a side” kinda thing, and more a “be skeptical, be objective, open yourself to the idea that the truth is inevitably in the middle” kinda thing.
And for the love of Jah, stop gaslighting anyone who deviates with your views!
if i missed you saying that EVERY pretense for the invasion was bunk, i apologize
i don’t think any of what you quoted states that
Have we fallen into a mesmerized state that makes us accept as inevitable that which is inferior or detrimental, as though having lost the will or the vision to demand that which is good?
Re: Let’s have a war!
his condemnation of Russia always comes with caveats and a built in excuses for their actions and a shifting of blame unto others. Its bunch of fucking bullshit.
Now go cherry pick all your 100s of posts specifically mentioning nazis and Ukraine and tying them together.
Then tell me that Putins propaganda of nazism (apparently what he was also going to do in Japan?) isn't working.
Now go cherry pick all your 100s of posts specifically mentioning nazis and Ukraine and tying them together.
Then tell me that Putins propaganda of nazism (apparently what he was also going to do in Japan?) isn't working.
Just Ledoux it
Re: Let’s have a war!
wait, so now I'm being called out cuz my repeated and explicit condemnation of Russia's invasion wasn't....comprehensive enough?
Cuz yes, when I say it's bullshit, I mean complete and total bullshit. I never meant it with any excuses or caveats or anything otherwise. If you thought I did, perhaps that is so not because of my own words, but because of your own prejudices.
It's ALL bullshit. EVERY pretense. There was, and is, absolutely no good reason for Russia to invade Ukraine. There is every good reason for Russia to ceasefire and retreat.
is that better?
heck, if any of you guys really do think I've ever said anything that ever even vaguely supported anything about anything about Russia, feel free to go dig it up, and I'll eat that crow. Good luck in your search!
tho, please be aware - willingness to actually acknowledge valid concerns about militant nationalism in Ukraine, or willingness to actually consider valid criticisms of US foreign policy, does not equate to support for Russia.
To point out as much is not to shift blame onto others, at least not in a way meant to excuse Russia...DEFINITELY not in a way meant to excuse Russia. It's cuz there's blame to go around! (I think I've said this before, but...you guys realize these things don't exactly happen in a vacuum, right?)
Or, if you do think such concerns and criticisms are not valid, and/or are inappropriate to even consider, and/or DO equate to support for the bad guy, I think it's only fair to place the burden upon you to articulate why.
Cuz yes, when I say it's bullshit, I mean complete and total bullshit. I never meant it with any excuses or caveats or anything otherwise. If you thought I did, perhaps that is so not because of my own words, but because of your own prejudices.
It's ALL bullshit. EVERY pretense. There was, and is, absolutely no good reason for Russia to invade Ukraine. There is every good reason for Russia to ceasefire and retreat.
is that better?
heck, if any of you guys really do think I've ever said anything that ever even vaguely supported anything about anything about Russia, feel free to go dig it up, and I'll eat that crow. Good luck in your search!
tho, please be aware - willingness to actually acknowledge valid concerns about militant nationalism in Ukraine, or willingness to actually consider valid criticisms of US foreign policy, does not equate to support for Russia.
To point out as much is not to shift blame onto others, at least not in a way meant to excuse Russia...DEFINITELY not in a way meant to excuse Russia. It's cuz there's blame to go around! (I think I've said this before, but...you guys realize these things don't exactly happen in a vacuum, right?)
Or, if you do think such concerns and criticisms are not valid, and/or are inappropriate to even consider, and/or DO equate to support for the bad guy, I think it's only fair to place the burden upon you to articulate why.
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KUTradition
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Re: Let’s have a war!
so, all your posts about nazis in Ukraine are just coincidence?
i tried numerous times to get you to focus on naziism and arms sales elsewhere, but you didn’t seem to have the same enthusiasm to get into details that were exclusive of Ukraine
and maybe it is just coincidence that your nazi posts were parroting the putin narrative…if it were me, i’d be pretty uncomfortable espousing the same views as someone like putin
i tried numerous times to get you to focus on naziism and arms sales elsewhere, but you didn’t seem to have the same enthusiasm to get into details that were exclusive of Ukraine
and maybe it is just coincidence that your nazi posts were parroting the putin narrative…if it were me, i’d be pretty uncomfortable espousing the same views as someone like putin
Have we fallen into a mesmerized state that makes us accept as inevitable that which is inferior or detrimental, as though having lost the will or the vision to demand that which is good?
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Deleted User 863
Re: Let’s have a war!
Misrepresent. Misrepresent. Ask questions. Ignore answers. Misrepresent. Misrepresent.
Rinse. Repeat.
All day. Every day.
Rinse. Repeat.
All day. Every day.
Re: Let’s have a war!
and I tried numerous times to acknowledge that nazism and arms sales elsewhere are issues in themselves, but if I lack the enthusiasm to get into the details that were exclusive of Ukraine, it's that I, at least, am not familiar with anywhere else in the world that nazism and arms sales issues are an issue so significant it reached critical mass to the point of provoking an invasion by a major nuclear power that could very well escalate to world war.
Is there anywhere else with such issues?
yea, Russia has a nazi problem too. But the thing is, are your and my tax dollars buying weapons for Russian nazis too?
For years, Ukraine hardly ever made news in the western world besides some second-page story like "Ukraine has a nazi problem." At least, that's the headlines since the "maidan revolution" (coup) in 2014 or whatever...and while I'll stop short of saying that coup was likely yet another staged by the United States, let me at least say it's peculiar that right after the coup went down, we were parading Joe Biden and John McCain around Ukraine.
I know "provoke" is a boogeyman word, and many of you guys think it's inappropriate to even say. But, bear in mind, in that same aftermath of the maidan coup, Obama was initially hesitant to pump arms to Ukraine, precisely out of fear it would PROVOKE Russia...but then, somewhere along the line, we started pumping arms into Ukraine anyway.
And, as we were pumping arms into Ukraine, we knew about Ukraine's nazi problem - so much so, that some of our own lawmakers raised the question like "why are we giving weapons to nazis in Ukraine," to the point we even briefly paused the weapons brokering to Ukraine, only to fire up the weapons brokering into Ukraine once again.
And, it's fucking WILD how the western media narrative so quickly went from "US hesitates to give weapons to Ukraine cuz we don't wanna provoke Russia" to "now we're giving weapons to Ukraine anyway" to "Ukraine has a nazi problem" to "Ukraine's nazi problem is so bad that maybe we should stop giving them weapons" to "now we're giving more weapons to Ukraine again anyway"...
...to...one day...all of a sudden..."Ukraine good! Russia bad! and if you even consider mentioning all that shit we previously said about nazis in Ukraine or the US giving weapons to them even though we figured it would provoke Russia, that's all just Russian propaganda now!"
and, if you want the links to the respected western world leaders and respected western media sources confirming everything I just said, please go ahead and review this thread. I already posted all of it.
perhaps you missed it the first time around?
Is there anywhere else with such issues?
yea, Russia has a nazi problem too. But the thing is, are your and my tax dollars buying weapons for Russian nazis too?
For years, Ukraine hardly ever made news in the western world besides some second-page story like "Ukraine has a nazi problem." At least, that's the headlines since the "maidan revolution" (coup) in 2014 or whatever...and while I'll stop short of saying that coup was likely yet another staged by the United States, let me at least say it's peculiar that right after the coup went down, we were parading Joe Biden and John McCain around Ukraine.
I know "provoke" is a boogeyman word, and many of you guys think it's inappropriate to even say. But, bear in mind, in that same aftermath of the maidan coup, Obama was initially hesitant to pump arms to Ukraine, precisely out of fear it would PROVOKE Russia...but then, somewhere along the line, we started pumping arms into Ukraine anyway.
And, as we were pumping arms into Ukraine, we knew about Ukraine's nazi problem - so much so, that some of our own lawmakers raised the question like "why are we giving weapons to nazis in Ukraine," to the point we even briefly paused the weapons brokering to Ukraine, only to fire up the weapons brokering into Ukraine once again.
And, it's fucking WILD how the western media narrative so quickly went from "US hesitates to give weapons to Ukraine cuz we don't wanna provoke Russia" to "now we're giving weapons to Ukraine anyway" to "Ukraine has a nazi problem" to "Ukraine's nazi problem is so bad that maybe we should stop giving them weapons" to "now we're giving more weapons to Ukraine again anyway"...
...to...one day...all of a sudden..."Ukraine good! Russia bad! and if you even consider mentioning all that shit we previously said about nazis in Ukraine or the US giving weapons to them even though we figured it would provoke Russia, that's all just Russian propaganda now!"
and, if you want the links to the respected western world leaders and respected western media sources confirming everything I just said, please go ahead and review this thread. I already posted all of it.
perhaps you missed it the first time around?
Re: Let’s have a war!
dude, I'm not the one ignoring answers.BasketballJayhawk wrote: ↑Fri Dec 02, 2022 3:20 pm Misrepresent. Misrepresent. Ask questions. Ignore answers. Misrepresent. Misrepresent.
Rinse. Repeat.
All day. Every day.
It's that your guys's answers were never much more than the same old good guy bad guy rhetoric and hollow "freedom and democracy" platitudes. It impresses the shit out of Mich, I know, but I can't help but think there's more to it.
Then, please realize how thorough I've tried to be in articulating my argument here, only to have you guys ignore it all anyway, then turn around and say shit like I was never being thorough enough, just cuz I repeatedly condemned Russia doesn't mean I ACTUALLY condemn Russia, etc.
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KUTradition
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Re: Let’s have a war!
dude, make up your mindousdahl wrote: ↑Fri Dec 02, 2022 3:25 pm and I tried numerous times to acknowledge that nazism and arms sales elsewhere are issues in themselves, but if I lack the enthusiasm to get into the details that were exclusive of Ukraine, it's that I, at least, am not familiar with anywhere else in the world that nazism and arms sales issues are an issue so significant it reached critical mass to the point of provoking an invasion by a major nuclear power that could very well escalate to world war.
you either believe those justifications or you don’t
the US sells arms to tons of countries that have problems…with neo-nazis, with human rights, with environmental issues, etc., etc., etc.
Have we fallen into a mesmerized state that makes us accept as inevitable that which is inferior or detrimental, as though having lost the will or the vision to demand that which is good?
Re: Let’s have a war!
gee, Qusdahl, when you put it THAT way - that the US sells arms to tons of countries that have problems…with neo-nazis, with human rights, with environmental issues, etc., etc., etc. - it doesn't make the US sound like harbingers of freedom and democracy at all. In fact, it kinda just makes the US sound like just a bunch of warmongering assholes!
and, dude, before I respond to the rest, I'll ask again: you realize these things don't happen in a vacuum, right?
cuz, to me on the spot about some "either/or" sort of gotcha moment about "justifications," here's the thing:
I really do condemn Russia's invasion. Comprehensively! Without any caveats or excuses!
As in, I condemn Russia's invasion REGARDLESS of whether Ukraine has a nazi problem, or whether the Ukraine and their US/NATO pals provoked it, or whether anything else.
cuz, fwiw, I condemn nazis in Ukraine, and I condemn US warmongering too. It's YOU GUYS shrugging all that shit off, not me.
I'm going for a wholly anti-war position here.
is that even allowed?
Or are you gonna make me pick a side?
and, dude, before I respond to the rest, I'll ask again: you realize these things don't happen in a vacuum, right?
cuz, to me on the spot about some "either/or" sort of gotcha moment about "justifications," here's the thing:
I really do condemn Russia's invasion. Comprehensively! Without any caveats or excuses!
As in, I condemn Russia's invasion REGARDLESS of whether Ukraine has a nazi problem, or whether the Ukraine and their US/NATO pals provoked it, or whether anything else.
cuz, fwiw, I condemn nazis in Ukraine, and I condemn US warmongering too. It's YOU GUYS shrugging all that shit off, not me.
I'm going for a wholly anti-war position here.
is that even allowed?
Or are you gonna make me pick a side?
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Deleted User 863
Re: Let’s have a war!
We get it. You're anti war. We aren't anti-United States-enough. You've obtained the moral high ground.
Re: Let’s have a war!
yea, I know there's that angle too. I must be anti-US or hate the US or something like that. And, sure, there's some component, I guess.
But I honestly don't feel like I hate the US. I'm grateful for plenty of it - including, as I mentioned previously in this thread, the freedom to criticize the US. That's big!
but, though we do have the freedom to criticize the US, I feel like part of the US identity at large is, among other things, to refuse to criticize the US, at least about certain things...like war? Or something. At least in the context of this thread. There's this prideful patriotism about war, it seems. America is so inherently good in itself that any war it wages must be good too, even if everybody else's war is bad.
We have the biggest military in the world, yet the smallest anti-war community. And, if this thread is any indication, anti-war is apparently difficult for many otherwise-intelligent Mericans to distinguish from "just more bad guy propaganda." Heck, that in itself may be a testament to just how effective the Merican propaganda may be.
Contrast that with protests across Europe cuz European peoples apparently at least have enough conscience to say they're sick of it. And yea, the protests were about more than just anti-war. It was a lot about energy prices and inflation and all these other things that may all be correlated with war, or even directly caused.
But I honestly don't feel like I hate the US. I'm grateful for plenty of it - including, as I mentioned previously in this thread, the freedom to criticize the US. That's big!
but, though we do have the freedom to criticize the US, I feel like part of the US identity at large is, among other things, to refuse to criticize the US, at least about certain things...like war? Or something. At least in the context of this thread. There's this prideful patriotism about war, it seems. America is so inherently good in itself that any war it wages must be good too, even if everybody else's war is bad.
We have the biggest military in the world, yet the smallest anti-war community. And, if this thread is any indication, anti-war is apparently difficult for many otherwise-intelligent Mericans to distinguish from "just more bad guy propaganda." Heck, that in itself may be a testament to just how effective the Merican propaganda may be.
Contrast that with protests across Europe cuz European peoples apparently at least have enough conscience to say they're sick of it. And yea, the protests were about more than just anti-war. It was a lot about energy prices and inflation and all these other things that may all be correlated with war, or even directly caused.
Re: Let’s have a war!
and that's not even to mention all the US warmongering going on that the US war machine doesn't even bother to get the US people all worked up about.
just what are or were we up to in (insert foreign nation here)?
like for real, just pick a nation. Any nation!
odds are we are, or at some point were: bombing, invading, occupying, coup-ing, arming, propagandizing, meddling, sanctioning, or otherwise fucking around there.
And, for what?
I don't fuckin know!
but, not knowing helps Mericans sleep better at night, I guess.
then, just for a moment stop and think about how pissed we get at the thought of any other nation doing any of that shit...oh man!
just what are or were we up to in (insert foreign nation here)?
like for real, just pick a nation. Any nation!
odds are we are, or at some point were: bombing, invading, occupying, coup-ing, arming, propagandizing, meddling, sanctioning, or otherwise fucking around there.
And, for what?
I don't fuckin know!
but, not knowing helps Mericans sleep better at night, I guess.
then, just for a moment stop and think about how pissed we get at the thought of any other nation doing any of that shit...oh man!
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Deleted User 863
Re: Let’s have a war!
The world is a cruel and dangerous place. Sometimes good people have to do bad things. We are not peaceful animals.
These are some things you're going to have to come to grips with.
....and almost ALL of us agree the United States are not perfect. We almost ALL criticize the United States at times. Many of us do so frequently.
These are some things you're going to have to come to grips with.
....and almost ALL of us agree the United States are not perfect. We almost ALL criticize the United States at times. Many of us do so frequently.
Re: Let’s have a war!
Kanye West and Kenya East...of Uganda
Re: Let’s have a war!
this is the only time I'm ever gonna quote someone I know is ignoring me otherwise. don't worry, promise I won't go full illy and keep quoting him anyway. And mjl, if you DO end up reading this, sorry.
the thing is, I read this post of his before he edited it. I had it quoted and ready to ask all my follow-up questions and everything. But then I saw he subsequently added posts about being all worked up and stupid for coming back to this thread, and I felt that, and decided to drop it.
but, now that he's ignoring me anyway, lemme ask you guys...
just what the heck do you think mjl meant when this post of his initially read something along the lines of, "just because Russia invaded Ukraine doesn't mean Russia is bad."
????
no really.
I'm genuinely perplexed about just where the heck he was going with this.
now, nobody quote this! or quote any of my other posts any more! as a courtesy to mjl.
Re: Let’s have a war!
https://www.cnn.com/2022/12/13/europe/r ... index.html
Just a reminder of why I still support the US role in helping Ukraine against Russia.
Just a reminder of why I still support the US role in helping Ukraine against Russia.