Let’s have a war!

[KUTradition]

right on.

if that's the case, and if I may ask as matter-of-factly and respectfully as possible, how does one reconcile disapproval of a bloated pentagon budget, with some sorta approval of one blank check after another for Ukraine?

is that not like, some massive cognitive dissonance going on or something?

(hope that's not too annoying to ask)

it’s easy, actually

one is a philosophical stance, and the other is grounded in reality

[ousdahl]

holy fuck, I think youre being intentionally dense.

One of those is a nation under attack and a current warzone

more condescension, allsome.

so if I follow the logic, if you're OK with the increasingly bloated Ukraine budget cuz it's part of a current war zone, then you would also be OK (rather than "ugh") with the increasingly bloated Pentagon budget, if the Pentagon was part of a current war zone too?

cuuuuz if you consider the Pentagon to NOT be part of a current war zone, boy does Qusdahl have news for you!

[ousdahl]

right on.

if that's the case, and if I may ask as matter-of-factly and respectfully as possible, how does one reconcile disapproval of a bloated pentagon budget, with some sorta approval of one blank check after another for Ukraine?

is that not like, some massive cognitive dissonance going on or something?

(hope that's not too annoying to ask)

it’s easy, actually

one is a philosophical stance, and the other is grounded in reality

wait, which is which?

[TDub]

holy fuck, I think youre being intentionally dense.

One of those is a nation under attack and a current warzone

more condescension, allsome.

so if I follow the logic, if you're OK with the increasingly bloated Ukraine budget cuz it's part of a current war zone, then you would also be OK (rather than "ugh") with the increasingly bloated Pentagon budget, if the Pentagon was part of a current war zone too?

cuuuuz if you consider the Pentagon to NOT be part of a current war zone, boy does Qusdahl have news for you!

yes! if we were in an active war we are going to need to dedicate more money and resources to our defense efforts. yknow....like in WWII the reallocation resources and metals to the war?!

good grief. how old and how naive are you?

[TDub]

when you are in war...you are depleting your ammunition and supplies....if you do not want to run out and, thus, lose the war.....you must ramp up production of these items. Upping production costs money. lordy.

[KUTradition]

Ousie, shake the delusion that humans will just all of a sudden get along…not gonna happen, no matter how nice it would be and how much more progress we could make as a species and society if it were to happen (that’s the philosophical spin; below is reality)

i’d much rather live in a world where the US, despite all of its flaws and pock-marks, is still (imo) the best option for shaping global politics

serious question, so please take a sec and answer it honestly and like an adult: in the absence of US influence, would you be comfortable with a world whose values lean more towards the chinese or russians? (or Indians even…dot, not feather)

someone will fill the void…which country is better “positioned” to lead the world than the US?

[ousdahl]

to answer your question honestly and like an adult: maybe?

[KUTradition]

you either:

a) are lying

b) not thinking it through like i asked

or, c) should seriously consider moving to one of those countries (no really, seriously think about it)

more and more i get the impression that you don’t appreciate the inherent benefits that come from being a US citizen. and let me be clear, one can appreciate the benefits while still criticizing and wanting “us” to do/be better.

but, if you think citizens in any of the countries that would be positioned to fill a theoretical void left by the US have it any better than you (at any level), then you really should look at immigration

[ousdahl]

if we may actually discuss, what makes you feel the US is still the best option for shaping global politics, despite all its flaws?

And, what makes you think China or Russia or India or somewhere else yet being an inferior option otherwise?

now that I'm thinking about it, this is quite the can of worms! There's a lot of angles.

But, in the context of this thread, I think China and Russia are at least better about not being warmongering assholes than the US?

(Russian invasion of Ukraine be damned...and here's where Qusdahl can't help but ask how the narrative went from "2014 Merica doesn't wanna flood Ukraine with weapons out of concern it'll provoke Russia" to "2022 Merica is proud to flood the fuck out of Ukraine with weapons and now says even using the word provoke is just more Putin propaganda and...nm)

and general big picture thoughts, like: if the US brand of "freedom and democracy" can only exist with the support of military force, is it even freedom and democracy at all?

and thoughts like, at least China and Russia give their people goddamn healthcare. Like, how do you think the US is in the best position to lead the world when the US fails so mightily to meet so many of the basic material needs of its own people? When you consider all the inequality in the US, how do you not expect the US to do anything but establish systems of inequality across the world? China builds a fucking hospital in like 3 days, yet Merica bickers for years about the water in Jackson, or the power grid in Puerto Rico, or...

...oh yeah, about that, the big fat elephant in the room:

white supremacy.

The US is a nation founded upon indigenous genocide and African slave labor. Do you think we've ever really fully come to to terms with that, or actually reconciled as much? I mean, we're talking about a place that responds to BLM protests as not being about black lives mattering but "actually just rioting looting thugs," responding to Critical Race Theory with explicit initiatives to ban it, and - again, back to this thread - we bomb the fuck out of brown folks all the fucking time and no one even fucking hears about it and certainly doesn't care, then we give Ukraine the Snow White hero treatment in the media, and from the purse.

among other angles...

[ousdahl]

you either:

a) are lying

b) not thinking it through like i asked

or, c) should seriously consider moving to one of those countries (no really, seriously think about it)

more and more i get the impression that you don’t appreciate the inherent benefits that come from being a US citizen. and let me be clear, one can appreciate the benefits while still criticizing and wanting “us” to do/be better.

but, if you think citizens in any of the countries that would be positioned to fill a theoretical void left by the US have it any better than you (at any level), then you really should look at immigration

Geez dude, if I wanted to be on the receiving end of more condescending gaslights, I would have just engaged TDub some more.

and yes, fwiw I think frequently about moving abroad!

if I may ask you: are you willing to consider that maybe the US, given its flaws, is NOT in the best position to lead the world? Or do you wanna double down on going full Mich about it?

(come on Mich, you're teed up...now would be a great time to drop another "Merica is the greatest great in the history of greatness")

[KUTradition]

i have thought about it, quite seriously actually

that’s why i posited the question to you, even though i knew i’d regret it (which i do)

but as per norm, you didn’t really answer my question - other than a non-answer, throwing the question back at me, and muddying the waters with a bunch of tangents

you’re exhausting

[ousdahl]

sigh.

Merican exceptionalism is a hell of a drug.

Let's just let this thread go away, please.

No really, I'd rather just get along.

[TDub]

holy fuck, I think youre being intentionally dense.

One of those is a nation under attack and a current warzone

more condescension, allsome.

so if I follow the logic, if you're OK with the increasingly bloated Ukraine budget cuz it's part of a current war zone, then you would also be OK (rather than "ugh") with the increasingly bloated Pentagon budget, if the Pentagon was part of a current war zone too?

cuuuuz if you consider the Pentagon to NOT be part of a current war zone, boy does Qusdahl have news for you!

pointing out the extremely obvious to an adult isn't being condescending. It's an amazingly silly question that you continue to ask even when given numerous responses. You ask the same question over and over.

[Deleted User 863]

holy fuck, I think youre being intentionally dense.

One of those is a nation under attack and a current warzone

more condescension, allsome.

so if I follow the logic, if you're OK with the increasingly bloated Ukraine budget cuz it's part of a current war zone, then you would also be OK (rather than "ugh") with the increasingly bloated Pentagon budget, if the Pentagon was part of a current war zone too?

cuuuuz if you consider the Pentagon to NOT be part of a current war zone, boy does Qusdahl have news for you!

Yes. If our country was currently being invaded and bombed I'd he much happier about the 50+% increase in spending.

[Deleted User 863]

if we may actually discuss, what makes you feel the US is still the best option for shaping global politics, despite all its flaws?

And, what makes you think China or Russia or India or somewhere else yet being an inferior option otherwise?

now that I'm thinking about it, this is quite the can of worms! There's a lot of angles.

But, in the context of this thread, I think China and Russia are at least better about not being warmongering assholes than the US?

(Russian invasion of Ukraine be damned...and here's where Qusdahl can't help but ask how the narrative went from "2014 Merica doesn't wanna flood Ukraine with weapons out of concern it'll provoke Russia" to "2022 Merica is proud to flood the fuck out of Ukraine with weapons and now says even using the word provoke is just more Putin propaganda and...nm)

and general big picture thoughts, like: if the US brand of "freedom and democracy" can only exist with the support of military force, is it even freedom and democracy at all?

and thoughts like, at least China and Russia give their people goddamn healthcare. Like, how do you think the US is in the best position to lead the world when the US fails so mightily to meet so many of the basic material needs of its own people? When you consider all the inequality in the US, how do you not expect the US to do anything but establish systems of inequality across the world? China builds a fucking hospital in like 3 days, yet Merica bickers for years about the water in Jackson, or the power grid in Puerto Rico, or...

...oh yeah, about that, the big fat elephant in the room:

white supremacy.

The US is a nation founded upon indigenous genocide and African slave labor. Do you think we've ever really fully come to to terms with that, or actually reconciled as much? I mean, we're talking about a place that responds to BLM protests as not being about black lives mattering but "actually just rioting looting thugs," responding to Critical Race Theory with explicit initiatives to ban it, and - again, back to this thread - we bomb the fuck out of brown folks all the fucking time and no one even fucking hears about it and certainly doesn't care, then we give Ukraine the Snow White hero treatment in the media, and from the purse.

among other angles...

Ho. Lee. Shit.

[ousdahl]

Ok fine.

If I may ask as civilly as possible, could someone please make the case for why the US is the best option as far as global leadership?

For real, I’m open to it! Help me out here!

Cuz yea, maybe I’m being too critical and not giving ol’ Merica enough credit here.

Your case would be more compelling if you counter any criticisms I’ve made about Merica, and/or demonstrate why China or Russia or whoever else would still be worse. And I’m gonna try to give the benefit of the doubt this time. And fwiw, my “maybe” came from a place just trying to be as open minded as possible all along.

And if I amend my previous statement, here’s the even bigger elephant, and the thing that I think global leadership needs to be more and more all about:

The even more frightening perspective thread.

So which country is best equipped to address climate change and ecological collapse and such? That’s to say, to plan and implement the systemic changes required to address it on a global scale?

[Deleted User 863]

Your comment about Russia and China taking better care of their people shows a complete lack of knowledge about the history of those 2 countries.

Good grief. This isn't fun for anyone anymore.

[ousdahl]

sooo

Could you please elaborate? Do you mean they don’t have more progressive healthcare and such policies? Something more sinister yet?

Or did you mean your comment only as more condescension?

[Deleted User 863]

No, I won't elaborate.


You're entitled to your opinion.

[ousdahl]

not going for opinions, I’m asking for some more objective evaluation here

but thanks just the same, CoyDC