Capitalism causes climate change

[DCHawk1]

china is a horrible country.

My friends who live there think it's the greatest country on Earth and like it very much.

China IS a great country. China's government is among the vilest earth has ever known.

[jhawks99]

china is a horrible country.

My friends who live there think it's the greatest country on Earth and like it very much.

China IS a great country. China's government is among the vilest earth has ever known.

They would agree

[ousdahl]

it does, but it doesn’t have to

so far I think this might be my fave post in the thread.

So how do we get capitalism to swing its invisible free market hand against climate change, rather than keep shrugging off climate change for the sake of profits?

[DCHawk1]

Found ousie

[ousdahl]

sometimes I wonder if DC is really just a Babylon Bee bot

[DCHawk1]

Shut up, Ginger.

[KUTradition]

it does, but it doesn’t have to

so far I think this might be my fave post in the thread.

So how do we get capitalism to swing its invisible free market hand against climate change, rather than keep shrugging off climate change for the sake of profits?

don’t let fallible humans be in charge

[ousdahl]

Yea.

Fuckin humans!

Maybe we should just put AI in charge?

they can already successfully program AI to do the work of corporate managers, right?

(But that may be less a testament to just how clever AI has become, and more a testament to just how inhuman corporate managers have been all along.)

And, again again again, I can’t help but wonder if there’s some merit to systemic change. Or even some possibility of systemic change!

Rather than implement systems that prioritize pursuit of profits even when the literal destruction of the planet is otherwise at stake, let’s implement systems that prioritize conservation and sustainability.

But man, that’s a big thought.

It’s what we need to all be thinking about though!

[zsn]

it does, but it doesn’t have to

so far I think this might be my fave post in the thread.

So how do we get capitalism to swing its invisible free market hand against climate change, rather than keep shrugging off climate change for the sake of profits?

I think you’re confusing capitalism with corporatism. True capitalism would have recognized the opportunity that managing climate change presents and monetized it. Corporatism on the other hand is a lazy beast which is hellbent on trying to squeeze out every last drop of water from a piece of rock. The deadly combination of corporatists and their beholden political subordinates has ensured that markets are never truly free, a prerequisite for true Capitalism.

[DCHawk1]

Wait.

Did I hack ZSN's account?

[Deleted User 863]

I think you’re confusing capitalism with corporatism. True capitalism would have recognized the opportunity that managing climate change presents and monetized it. Corporatism on the other hand is a lazy beast which is hellbent on trying to squeeze out every last drop of water from a piece of rock. The deadly combination of corporatists and their beholden political subordinates has ensured that markets are never truly free, a prerequisite for true Capitalism.

❤

[ousdahl]

good post, zsn.

could we distinguish corporatism from capitalism?

you speak of capitalism as if it's some noble system that's otherwise been corrupted by corporatism, as if corporatism isn't some result of capitalism anyway.

and are markets ever really truly "free?" how are we to be sure a pure capitalist system would treat managing climate change as an opportunity, rather than doubling down on carbon-emitting systems cuz doing so is more profitable for the time being?

What's to prevent some pure unadulterated capitalist system from just becoming monopolistic, and going all "buy or bury" on anyone trying to introduce better ways to manage climate change to the market?

and the whole concept of infinite consumption. Is that more cuz of corporatism specifically, or capitalism generally?

but, let's assume the problem is corporatism, and that capitalism (if somehow separated from corporatism) is still the best solution, then, asking again: how do we get capitalism to swing its invisible free market hand against climate change, rather than keep shrugging off climate change for the sake of profits?

[Deleted User 863]

So. Many. Questions.

[DCHawk1]

So. Many. Questions.

Many (most? all?) of which have been addressed over the decades.

Start here Ousie

[ousdahl]

thanks for the book rec, DC.

would you please be so kind as to give a quick synopsis? maybe share your take?

[zsn]

All economic systems are corrupted by political “realities” - be they capitalism, socialism or communism. Add “Animal Farm” to the reading list. Everything starts out with good intentions and ends up corrupted to various degrees. People were up in arms about indoor smoking bans (primarily by establishment corporatists ), then capitalism (in the form of higher nonsmokers patronage) sorted itself out. The time frame was just a few years.

In this case it would probably take a lot longer due to the entrenchment of various interests. The drum beats of “electricity still comes from fossil fuels” is going to die down a lot slower. Never mind that in several instances the sum of non-fossil sources are greater than from fossil fuels (happening in the California grid, for the first time last year; in our local utility district it’s now consistently close to 60+%).

Change takes time and effort and the degree of each depends on how entrenched we are. Powerful institutions have a lot to lose and will do everything to prevent the change including dividing public opinion.

[DCHawk1]

Curious. Who/what are the powerful, entrenched interests in this case? Who is guiltiest of corporatist behavior?

[ousdahl]

Curious. Who/what are the powerful, entrenched interests in this case? Who is guiltiest of corporatist behavior?

Many (most? all?) of which have been addressed over the decades.

Start here DC

[DCHawk1]

LOL

ETA: If you want to equate a work of (crackpotastical) economics with a work of moral philosophy, I can't stop you.

But I suspect that explains the larger part of your confusion.

[Sparko]

This Western Civ final is going to be killer.