Israel/Palestine

[ousdahl]

NiceDC’s back!



…but not for zsn.

[zsn]

DC can’t accept that his individual metrics for what passes for a functioning democracy is easily refuted by rather absurd examples to prove the contrary. He has to resort to condescension and name calling.

Each metric is necessary but not sufficient. Too bad he’s too full of himself to understand the argument

[DCHawk1]

To the best of my knowledge, in all your years here, you've yet to MAKE an argument. You toss out a few lines of rhetoric and assume, since it convinced you, that it will convince anyone.

[RainbowsandUnicorns]

Received this email (see below) this morning. I'm not really a Haaretz reader - but I play one on TV.

Interesting Amos didn't mention the "attack" on Palestine yesterday that shed Israel in a very negative light amongst the International media.
This is an updated story of what has transpired over the past 24-36 hours.
https://www.cnn.com/2023/02/23/middleea ... index.html


A letter from Haaretz Publisher,
Amos Schocken

עמוס שוקן

Dear Haaretz reader,

Despite the hopes – and votes – of nearly half of Israel's electorate, Benjamin Netanyahu won Israel's last election and, since taking office as prime minister, he has spun into action together with his far-right partners, to implement a swathe of radical policies that threaten to change the nature of Israel's democracy, perhaps irrevocably.

Israel's newly empowered right wing, discarding its liberal right heritage, has swung towards nationalism, illiberalism and authoritarianism. We now have a serving prime minister who is simultaneously the subject of an ongoing criminal trial, and hoping to evade justice. We have a government pushing to undermine the rule of law in Israel, to end the separation of powers, the independence of the courts and judges, and to crush freedom of expression.

It is incumbent upon us to fight these policies and even worse proposals taking shape among members of the governing coalition. This fight must be informed by the unparalleled, and unafraid, reporting and analysis that has been our mission for over a century.

At Haaretz, our dedicated journalists are on the ground every day working to defend a free and democratic Israel-- and the work we do depends on the support of readers like you. We invite you to become a partner in this essential work by subscribing now to Haaretz.com. We must act together, and we must act now.

Thank you,

Amos Schocken

[KUTradition]

sounds like a perfectly healthy democracy to me

[DCHawk1]

Ummm...how many Arab newspapers could publish such an editorial?

I mean...you take the fundamentals for granted.

[Mjl]

Amazing how the newspaper I see quoted most by non-Israelis has only 5% market share there.

It's an obscure far left paper. Which is fine, to DC's point. But it's not representative of Israel.

[KUTradition]

Ummm...how many Arab newspapers could publish such an editorial?

I mean...you take the fundamentals for granted.

no, i don’t actually

i’ve made that exact same argument to others on this very bored with regards to the US vs china or russia

point is, which i think you know and a would agree with deep down, that the Israeli gov’t has some very real issues going forward, regardless of anything happening outside it’s “borders”

but, the same could be said for the US as well

i’m just not comfortable with the stance that “at least they’re the strongest democracy in the region” and leaving it at that. that’s a piss-poor standard if you ask me

[RainbowsandUnicorns]

Amazing how the newspaper I see quoted most by non-Israelis has only 5% market share there.

It's an obscure far left paper. Which is fine, to DC's point. But it's not representative of Israel.

Please forgive my ignorance. I have 3 questions.
1. Do the other newspapers in Israel that have higher market shares publish their papers in languages other than Hebrew?
2. What would you estimate the percentages of Israeli citizens (including non-Jews) are "Conservative" and what percentage are "Liberal"?
3. This is a tough one. Maybe it's my imagination but why does it seem (to me) that the majority of American media seems to be anti-Israel more than pro-Israel?

[ousdahl]

Should we finally go full Qusdahl here?

Nah, let’s not go full Qusdahl yet.

Let’s just go a little Qusdahl, and ask:

hasn’t it been suggested we should use Israel as a model to rebuild Ukraine?

[KUTradition]

in regards to their own self defense, yes, that has been suggested

[DCHawk1]

Ummm...how many Arab newspapers could publish such an editorial?

I mean...you take the fundamentals for granted.

no, i don’t actually

i’ve made that exact same argument to others on this very bored with regards to the US vs china or russia

point is, which i think you know and a would agree with deep down, that the Israeli gov’t has some very real issues going forward, regardless of anything happening outside it’s “borders”

but, the same could be said for the US as well

i’m just not comfortable with the stance that and leaving it at that. that’s a piss-poor standard if you ask me

Oh.

I have no idea what you're going on about.

Piss-poor standard for what? Also, who ever said that “at least they’re the strongest democracy in the region” and left it at that?

[DCHawk1]

hasn’t it been suggested we should use Israel as a model to rebuild Ukraine?

Won't work.

Between the czarist pogroms, the Holocaust, the Soviet slaughters, and post-Soviet migration, there just aren't enough Jewish Ukrainians left to build an incredibly powerful and successful country.

[ousdahl]

Well, I dunno how much Jewish Ukrainians specifically factor into that idea.

I think the thought is more along the lines of, use the right wing Jewish/Zionist ethno-nationalist Israeli gummint as some model for a right wing Ukrainian-ethno-nationalist Ukrainian gummint

[ousdahl]

in regards to their own self defense, yes, that has been suggested

Ok, then, here comes the big question:

What sort of self defense, if any, should be afforded to Palestine?

[RainbowsandUnicorns]

Are you referring to the "good guys" or the "bad guys" in Palestine?
My opinion, all of the "bad guys" should be afforded no self defense.

[ousdahl]

There’s the rub.

Who gets to decide who’s the “good” guy and the “bad” guy?

Put another way, what militancy and violence is justified, even celebrated as “freedom fighters” and noble resistance and shit; and what is not?

And for that matter, where’s the line between “law and order” and police brutality?

[Deleted User 863]

Oh boy. Here we go. Again.

[DCHawk1]

There’s the rub.

Who gets to decide who’s the “good” guy and the “bad” guy?

Put another way, what militancy and violence is justified, even celebrated as “freedom fighters” and noble resistance and shit; and what is not?

And for that matter, where’s the line between “law and order” and police brutality?

Have you ever, by chance, asked yourself why, after three-quarters of a century, the Palestinians still live, for the most part, in "refugee" camps? Have you ever wondered how Palestinians differ -- ethnically, linguistically, religiously -- from "Jordanians"? Has it ever occurred to ponder why it is that, over the last five or ten years, the leaders of the Arab world, most notably the Saudis, have put aside their differences with the Israelis, despite previously insisting that they would never do so until the Palestinian question was solved? Have you ever thought, "Hey. I know where American aid to Israel goes, but where does the massive amounts of European aid to the Palestinians go?"

In short, have you ever done anything other than regurgitate what Ben & Jerry and Roger Waters tell you is relevant regarding the Palestinian "question?"

[DCHawk1]

Well, I dunno how much Jewish Ukrainians specifically factor into that idea.

I think the thought is more along the lines of, use the right wing Jewish/Zionist ethno-nationalist Israeli gummint as some model for a right wing Ukrainian-ethno-nationalist Ukrainian gummint

That was a joke, friend.

"right wing Jewish/Zionist ethno-nationalist Israeli gummint"

I mean...LOL?

Here's Golda Meir (speaking of Ukrainian Jews!) working on a kibbutz. You know what a kibbutz is?


Did you know that David Ben-Gurion was an avowed atheist? Or that he was a Lenin fanboy?

Do you know what guy whose name rhymes with Brosef Dallin supported the creation of Israel and saw it as a means to even the balance of power with the United States in the Middle East?

Do you know...well...anything about Israel?