Let’s have a war!

[ousdahl]

it kinda sounds like you're intentionally trying to phrase that in some goofy kinda way. You sure you're even reading my posts? Or are you just skimming them looking for something to cherry pick and try twisting into some gotcha question?

generally speaking, Russia and Ukraine have been fighting since forever. for us to show up and pick a side and throw more weapons into the mix -- that just seems like trying to put a fire out by pouring gasoline on it.

and, yea, as far as this most recent round of Ukraine/Russia Beef Stroganoff, I think it's definitely a possibility that the US has some hand in the Maidan revolution, which then prompted the eastern separatist republics and Crimea and shit, and began this most current conflict between the two countries, just like the nato bro said.

I also think it's possible that the US's strategy of providing aid and weapons to Ukraine since then should be considered, and considered more than anything an escalating factor, in the buildup to the 2022 invasion.

If someone thinks I have the timeline off or something, please do correct me.

and, since I really still must say these things, that's not to say Russia's invasion of Ukraine is justified!

[Deleted User 863]

it kinda sounds like you're intentionally trying to phrase that in some goofy kinda way. You sure you're even reading my posts?

Holy shit.

Pot, meet kettle.

[KUTradition]

just because nobody agrees with you doesn’t mean we didn’t “listen”

edit: i’d imagine many of us actually DO agree with you, that war is bad and that there should be alternatives to it

thing is, should and are are quite far apart in the real world when it comes to psychopaths (you’ve yet to offer a solution to dealing with murderous tyrants)

see, I've tried to offer a solution. A few different solutions, even.

Heck, you even responded to at least one, remember?

If Russia agreed to knock off their invasion bullshit if Ukraine agreed to not join nato, would you make that deal?

if that’s what Ukraine wants, absolutely

lol, whatever

that’s not a legitimate answer, so where are your others? it’s not legit because putin isn’t going anywhere…he doesn’t recognize Ukraine’s LEGAL borders

what do you think the civilized world should’ve done, and should do in the future, about the milosovics of this world?

[TDub]

"Are you even reading my posts"

Holy fucking shit. That's fucking GOLD!

This thread has hit a new high.

[japhy]

it kinda sounds like you're intentionally trying to phrase that in some goofy kinda way. You sure you're even reading my posts? Or are you just skimming them looking for something to cherry pick and try twisting into some gotcha question?

If someone thinks I have the timeline off or something, please do correct me.

and, since I really still must say these things, that's not to say Russia's invasion of Ukraine is justified!

I am trying to establish why you think Russia invaded Ukraine. In my opinion the Russian invasion is not justified, it is illegal, and it was unprovoked.

Putin the best that I can tell gave 4 separate reasons why the invasion was justified and reasonable.

Concern over NATO's eastward expansion
Putin has expressed concern over the expansion of NATO, the North Atlantic Treaty Organization, into Eastern Europe and former Soviet Republics, especially Ukraine.

NATO is a political and military alliance that dates back to 1949 and consists of 30 member countries, including the US, Canada, the UK, France, Belgium, and many other European nations. NATO membership is open to any European country that meets its criteria. The alliance has said Ukraine is among three nations that are considered aspiring members.

Putin has criticized NATO for expanding eastward since the fall of the Soviet Union in 1991. He has said NATO enlisting nations on Russia's borders represents a provocation, though NATO insists it is a defensive alliance and not a threat to Russia.

In a speech Thursday morning, Putin said the invasion of Ukraine was an act of self-defense against NATO expansion.

As noted above NATO was formed as a unified defensive alliance to resist Russian invasion of neighboring sovereign European countries. I do not believe Putin really thought NATO was going to invade Russia. Europe would have never built up such a dependence upon Russian energy if they just wanted to later destabilize Russian and put their economies at risk.

Putin baselessly claims Ukraine is committing genocide against ethnic Russians
Putin has also accused Ukraine of committing genocide and called its government a Nazi regime, claims for which there is no evidence.

Earlier this month, Putin claimed genocide was being committed against ethnic Russians in eastern Ukraine, particularly in the Donbas region, where Kremlin-backed rebels have been fighting with Ukrainian forces since 2014.

On Monday, Putin recognized Donetsk and Luhansk, two separatist regions in the Donbas, as independent states and ordered Russian troops in for a "peacekeeping" operation, a move that was widely seen as a pretext for war.

In his Thursday speech announcing the invasion, Putin again repeated the claims of genocide, saying he was seeking the "denazification" of Ukraine, a country whose democratically elected leader, President Volodymyr Zelensky, is Jewish.

I think we can just start and stop with Zelensky is Jewish.

Putin falsely says Ukraine isn't a real country
In a lengthy speech Monday, Putin claimed Ukraine wasn't a real country: "Ukraine has never had its own authentic statehood. There has never been a sustainable statehood in Ukraine."

He argued Ukraine was created by the Soviet Union under its first leader, Vladimir Lenin, despite overwhelming evidence of Ukrainian culture and history that predates the Soviet Union. Putin also insisted that Ukraine is part of Russia.

"Let me emphasize once again that Ukraine for us is not just a neighboring country. It is an integral part of our own history, culture, spiritual space," he said.

Putin has also incorrectly stated that Russia gave Ukraine the right to break away, when in fact, the Ukrainian people voted overwhelmingly for independence in a 1991 referendum, The Washington Post reported. For the referendum vote, 84% of eligible voters went to the polls, and more than 90% voted in favor of independence.

We can start and stop with, if Ukraine isn't a separate country, why are they fighting and dying for their sovereignty?

Dubious concerns over nuclear weapons
After the collapse of the Soviet Union, Ukraine voluntarily gave up the nuclear weapons in its territory in exchange for a guarantee of security by the US, the UK, and Russia.

Putin, however, has expressed concern that Ukraine has the knowledge and desire to obtain nuclear weapons, thus posing a threat to Moscow. While there is no evidence that Ukraine is trying to acquire nuclear weapons, The New York Times reported that Putin had spewed conspiracy theories to talk up the threat and use it to justify an invasion.

"If Ukraine acquires weapons of mass destruction, the situation in the world and in Europe will drastically change, especially for us, for Russia," Putin said Tuesday. "We cannot but react to this real danger, all the more so since, let me repeat, Ukraine's Western patrons may help it acquire these weapons to create yet another threat to our country."

US officials and NATO have repeatedly said there are no plans to arm Ukraine with nuclear weapons.

There are reasons on all sides to think that removing nuclear warheads from Ukraine was good for all involved. Those reasons are still valid. There is no reasonable argument that NATO was going to put nuclear warheads back in Ukraine.

Coo to recap. All of Putin's reasons/provocations are bullshit. They are propaganda he created to justify his desires to rebuild Soviet Russia into the superpower it once was.

You have voiced great frustration with this thread. It seems like it goes nowhere. I think we can agree on that. If you look at the above 4 "reasons" Putin gave for justification, and remove every post in this thread that discusses those subjects which are not germane to a discussion of Putin's invasion of sovereign Ukraine because they are bullshit propaganda; then more than half the 120 pages of this thread just disappear. Can you see how discussion of those 4 subjects can be construed as giving legitimacy to Russian propaganda?

And America bad too....it is the definition of "whataboutism". It is tacit justification for Putin's bad deeds, because, but America bad too.

So to ease your frustration, and because I AM REALLY just here to help, not like some other socks, I started threads to discuss these topics which you seem very passionate about so that your intent in discussing Russia's invasion of sovereign Ukraine is not mistaken for Russian propaganda or whataboutism.

This will clear up some of the clusterfuck nature of this thread and we can now discuss the Russian invasion of Ukraine in rational terms.

[japhy]

Now that other obfuscation is out of the picture. Maybe we can discuss the invasion.

When Russian tanks rolled into Ukraine and started blowing up shit and killing people, why did the Ukrainians take up guns and escalate the situation by shooting back. Could they not have just waiting for Russia to wear itself out killing and destroying and then sit down with them and talk it out? Couldn't they have held hands and sung a chorus of "Give Peace A Chance" and just deescalated this whole thing? Was Ukraine justified in fighting back?

[ousdahl]

holy shit!

Was not expecting full meltdown today.

I promise I'll try to keep up, but imma need another cup of covfefe first.

[ousdahl]

just because nobody agrees with you doesn’t mean we didn’t “listen”

edit: i’d imagine many of us actually DO agree with you, that war is bad and that there should be alternatives to it

thing is, should and are are quite far apart in the real world when it comes to psychopaths (you’ve yet to offer a solution to dealing with murderous tyrants)

see, I've tried to offer a solution. A few different solutions, even.

Heck, you even responded to at least one, remember?

if that’s what Ukraine wants, absolutely

lol, whatever

that’s not a legitimate answer

sigh.

so where are your others?

I dunno. Let China or Israel or some other global adult in the room mediate a peace talk, perhaps, since the united states is so determined not to otherwise. I'd say maybe we should offer nixing our own "flood the place with arms" strategy as a bargaining chip, perhaps.

it’s not legit because putin isn’t going anywhere…he doesn’t recognize Ukraine’s LEGAL borders

could you please help us better understand the dynamic of Ukraine's borders, particularly to the east?

what do you think the civilized world should’ve done, and should do in the future, about the milosovics of this world?

well, ideally, maybe the "civilized world" could should would do something that involves less NATO carpet bombs dropped on civilians too, but maybe that's another one of them lesser-of-two-evils things.

[ousdahl]

Now that other obfuscation is out of the picture. Maybe we can discuss the invasion.

When Russian tanks rolled into Ukraine and started blowing up shit and killing people, why did the Ukrainians take up guns and escalate the situation by shooting back. Could they not have just waiting for Russia to wear itself out killing and destroying and then sit down with them and talk it out? Couldn't they have held hands and sung a chorus of "Give Peace A Chance" and just deescalated this whole thing? Was Ukraine justified in fighting back?

you realize there was fighting in Ukraine before this latest round of Russian tanks rolled in, right?

care to comment on the Maidan revolution?

cuz I'm legit still trying to understand that. And, again, please do correct me if I have my timelines wrong or anything.

[japhy]

Now that other obfuscation is out of the picture. Maybe we can discuss the invasion.

When Russian tanks rolled into Ukraine and started blowing up shit and killing people, why did the Ukrainians take up guns and escalate the situation by shooting back. Could they not have just waiting for Russia to wear itself out killing and destroying and then sit down with them and talk it out? Couldn't they have held hands and sung a chorus of "Give Peace A Chance" and just deescalated this whole thing? Was Ukraine justified in fighting back?

you realize there was fighting in Ukraine before this latest round of Russian tanks rolled in, right?

care to comment on the Maidan revolution?

cuz I'm legit still trying to understand that. And, again, please do correct me if I have my timelines wrong or anything.

We are past that, try to keep up.

Russia has now invaded Ukraine. The tanks are rolling, guns ablazing, women and children and old peoples and other non-combatants are dying.

At this point should the Ukrainians fight back, stand their ground if you will, or drop their weapons and trust that the unprovoked blowing up and shooting and killing will stop when they do?

[ousdahl]

no, we're not past it. According to NATO, that's when this current conflict began.

So, I know it's probably futile, but let me try again:

care to comment on the Maidan revolution?

[japhy]

no, we're not past it. According to NATO, that's when this current conflict began.

So, I know it's probably futile, but let me try again:

care to comment on the Maidan revolution?

If you want Putin to revise his reasons for invading Ukraine, talk to Putin.

[ousdahl]

been trying to respond to this one, but it's so long. Lemme prune up all the quotes and stuff a little...

I am trying to establish why you think Russia invaded Ukraine. In my opinion the Russian invasion is not justified, it is illegal, and it was unprovoked.

hey! we agree on something!

sort of...I guess the point of debate is that loaded word, "unprovoked." from my point of view, you seem determined to refuse to consider how any of Merica's own actions may have contributed to the situation. If you're gonna be so stubborn about that, and unwilling (or just unable?) to even consider as much, this thread just isn't gonna get anywhere.

Putin the best that I can tell gave 4 separate reasons why the invasion was justified and reasonable.

Concern over NATO's eastward expansion

yea. considering NATO is an alliance against the Soviet Union, and considering the Soviet Union hasn't been a thing for damn near 3 decades now, an objective observer might ask whether NATO is simply obsolete.

but, yes, considering, for the past 3 decades, NATO continued to expand hundreds of miles eastward (despite some potential controversy maybe it said it wouldn't), with perhaps the last big chip to fall in NATO's eastward expansion being Ukraine...at the very least, an objective observer might wonder if it rubbed Russia the wrong way. and again, not saying Russia is justified in invading Ukraine cuz of it! I'm just saying that's some context. And, if there was some Russian alliance that kept expanding right up to our doorstep, I don't think we'd just sit around twiddling our thumbs about it.

As noted above NATO was formed as a unified defensive alliance to resist Russian invasion of neighboring sovereign European countries. I do not believe Putin really thought NATO was going to invade Russia.

then why keep expanding right up to Russia's doorstep anyway?

Europe would have never built up such a dependence upon Russian energy if they just wanted to later destabilize Russian and put their economies at risk.

whoa! WHOA! maybe this thread IS getting somewhere!

I think you're onto something Japhy. If I were you I'd be asking, so now that Europe IS less dependent on Russian energy, who's selling more and more energy to Europe now? Hint: could it also be the folks egging on the escalation of conflict in Ukraine?

Putin baselessly claims Ukraine is committing genocide against ethnic Russians
Putin has also accused Ukraine of committing genocide and called its government a Nazi regime, claims for which there is no evidence.

Earlier this month, Putin claimed genocide was being committed against ethnic Russians in eastern Ukraine, particularly in the Donbas region, where Kremlin-backed rebels have been fighting with Ukrainian forces since 2014.

On Monday, Putin recognized Donetsk and Luhansk, two separatist regions in the Donbas, as independent states and ordered Russian troops in for a "peacekeeping" operation, a move that was widely seen as a pretext for war.

Japhy, since you refuse to listen to me, I encourage you to do some reading of your own. Go to google, set the search parameters for anything before, say, 2021, and type "Ukraine humanitarian crisis" into the search bar.

I think we can just start and stop with Zelensky is Jewish.

that's like saying, the United States has solved all own racism problems because we elected Barack Obama.

Putin falsely says Ukraine isn't a real country
In a lengthy speech Monday, Putin claimed Ukraine wasn't a real country: "Ukraine has never had its own authentic statehood. There has never been a sustainable statehood in Ukraine."

He argued Ukraine was created by the Soviet Union under its first leader, Vladimir Lenin, despite overwhelming evidence of Ukrainian culture and history that predates the Soviet Union. Putin also insisted that Ukraine is part of Russia.

"Let me emphasize once again that Ukraine for us is not just a neighboring country. It is an integral part of our own history, culture, spiritual space," he said.

Putin has also incorrectly stated that Russia gave Ukraine the right to break away, when in fact, the Ukrainian people voted overwhelmingly for independence in a 1991 referendum, The Washington Post reported. For the referendum vote, 84% of eligible voters went to the polls, and more than 90% voted in favor of independence.

and yet, Imma go out on a limb and posit, Ukraine still has more in common with Russia than they do with the United States.

We can start and stop with, if Ukraine isn't a separate country, why are they fighting and dying for their sovereignty?

I know you want this discussion to "start and stop," so it can fit neatly into your cute little world views. But, at least try to realize, there may be more to it than that.

but if you're sincerely asking, Ukraine is little more than cannon fodder here. The United States cares about the Ukrainian people about as much as they care about the people of Flint, MI, or Jackson, MS, or East Palestine, OH. That's to say, they don't care. Indeed, when a gummint primarily serves the interests of capital, then it fight wars on behalf of capital too. Let's put the "freedom and democracy" narrative on the back burner, and consider that maybe this war is less about that and more about global markets and such.

Dubious concerns over nuclear weapons
After the collapse of the Soviet Union, Ukraine voluntarily gave up the nuclear weapons in its territory in exchange for a guarantee of security by the US, the UK, and Russia.

Putin, however, has expressed concern that Ukraine has the knowledge and desire to obtain nuclear weapons, thus posing a threat to Moscow. While there is no evidence that Ukraine is trying to acquire nuclear weapons, The New York Times reported that Putin had spewed conspiracy theories to talk up the threat and use it to justify an invasion.

"If Ukraine acquires weapons of mass destruction, the situation in the world and in Europe will drastically change, especially for us, for Russia," Putin said Tuesday. "We cannot but react to this real danger, all the more so since, let me repeat, Ukraine's Western patrons may help it acquire these weapons to create yet another threat to our country."

US officials and NATO have repeatedly said there are no plans to arm Ukraine with nuclear weapons.

ohhhh....so now this thread just went full "WMDs in Ukraine," too!

Coo to recap. All of Putin's reasons/provocations are bullshit. They are propaganda he created to justify his desires to rebuild Soviet Russia into the superpower it once was.

yea. I've said that Putin's reasons are bullshit all along. But just because Putin's reasons are bullshit, doesn't mean we should bury our heads int he sand about actually trying to understand the situation in the bigger picture.

Can you see how discussion of those 4 subjects can be construed as giving legitimacy to Russian propaganda?

yea, especially if one had been conditioned to reject legitimate criticism for our own actions as just more bad guy propaganda.

And America bad too....it is the definition of "whataboutism". It is tacit justification for Putin's bad deeds, because, but America bad too.

speaking of rejecting legitimate criticism as just more bad guy propaganda...can you even tell a difference between "whataobutism" and "this is shit we really did do that really did materially contribute to the current situation at hand?"

So to ease your frustration, and because I AM REALLY just here to help, not like some other socks, I started threads to discuss these topics which you seem very passionate about so that your intent in discussing Russia's invasion of sovereign Ukraine is not mistaken for Russian propaganda or whataboutism.


This will clear up some of the clusterfuck nature of this thread and we can now discuss the Russian invasion of Ukraine in rational terms.

yea, Russian propaganda is definitely out there. I've made a point to be very cognizant of as much.

But here's the big difference between you and me: I HAVE made a point to be very cognizant of as much! Including - and here's the big big difference - the western propaganda too!

in contrast, you seem all too quick to knee-jerk deride anything that doesn't fit your feel-good narrow world views as Russian propaganda - just like the western propaganda has conditioned you to do! All while also being totally unaware that you you sound completely, totally, hammered ass, stumbling around, piss-yer-pants drunk, off the western propaganda yourself.

if you're anything less than cognizant of that much, it kinda just sounds like you really are trying to double down on finding WMDs in Iraq.


...phew! What a fucking essay! Now, don't anyone try to tell me ever again that I ignore your guys's posts.

[ousdahl]

and, I know we're less interested in actually understanding the situation at large, and more interested in just some Let's Have A War circle jerk, I know I know.

but, if we DO wanna try to understand this shit, and like really understand it on some broader objective level, then (in addition to the maidan revolution), one of you guys should take a stab at explaining the Minsk agreements, too.

[ousdahl]

aaaaand howsabout a reading assignment for the day!

forgive me for posting yet another Kremlin fluff piece, but I just couldn't resist all the lulz in this shameless propaganda from this sketchy Russian-state-affialiated media, The New York Times:

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/07/us/p ... raine.html

Intelligence Suggests Pro-Ukrainian Group Sabotaged Pipelines, U.S. Officials Say

[KUTradition]

see, I've tried to offer a solution. A few different solutions, even.

Heck, you even responded to at least one, remember?

lol, whatever

that’s not a legitimate answer

sigh.

so where are your others?

I dunno. Let China or Israel or some other global adult in the room mediate a peace talk, perhaps, since the united states is so determined not to otherwise. I'd say maybe we should offer nixing our own "flood the place with arms" strategy as a bargaining chip, perhaps.

it’s not legit because putin isn’t going anywhere…he doesn’t recognize Ukraine’s LEGAL borders

could you please help us better understand the dynamic of Ukraine's borders, particularly to the east?

what do you think the civilized world should’ve done, and should do in the future, about the milosovics of this world?

well, ideally, maybe the "civilized world" could should would do something that involves less NATO carpet bombs dropped on civilians too, but maybe that's another one of them lesser-of-two-evils things.

let someone else deal with it? lol

color me un-shocked that you’ve got zero alternative solution to dealing with murderous psychopaths

i was always taught to keep my mouth shut unless i’ve got alternatives…might be a good lesson to ponder on

[ousdahl]

OK, well what's your solution? Just bomb every last everyone, civilians and all?

cuz, if you REALLY wanna talk about murderous psychopaths, it seems disingenuous, and hypocritical, to point fingers at anybody else without holding our own country accountable first. That's not a whataboutism, it's a valid objective criticism! So stop acting so outraged when some other country does it but shrugging it off when we do!

as for Milosovic, I would have suggested something that's actually more precise, and cuts the proverbial head off the monster, and just targets the perpetrators; rather than indiscriminately going all collateral damage on the civilians we're otherwise supposedly trying to rescue...but then realize the carpet bombing of civilians WAS supposed to be NATO's high tech new precision response.

I'd suggest maybe some diplomatic efforts, try to be the adult in the room and negotiate from a neutral position for some kinda truce...but if this thread has established a single thing, that's the LAST thing you war hawks want.

and, yea, there's bad bad people in the world. But, especially considering America's own problems, I just dunno how you guys are so god damned confident we should be the ones playing world police.

Actually, maybe I do know. It's some callously entitled "better we bomb them first than the other way around" sort of mindset, perhaps?

[ousdahl]

in other news...

Thumbing through Twitter this morning, I was just delighted to see that one of our "we shouldn't be involved in Ukraine/Russia at all" elected representatives is in favor of...bombing Mexico.

Bang-up job, Marge.

https://thehill.com/policy/internationa ... in-mexico/

[KUTradition]

aaaaand howsabout a reading assignment for the day!

forgive me for posting yet another Kremlin fluff piece, but I just couldn't resist all the lulz in this shameless propaganda from this sketchy Russian-state-affialiated media, The New York Times:

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/07/us/p ... raine.html

Intelligence Suggests Pro-Ukrainian Group Sabotaged Pipelines, U.S. Officials Say

way to go all randy on the reports

PROOF, i tell ya!!

lol

[jfish26]

in other news...

Thumbing through Twitter this morning, I was just delighted to see that one of our "we shouldn't be involved in Ukraine/Russia at all" elected representatives is in favor of...bombing Mexico.

Bang-up job, Marge.

https://thehill.com/policy/internationa ... in-mexico/

Ah yes, the party that encourages medical tourism wants a word.

Fuck and off, Senator.