Let’s have a war!

[ousdahl]

Win or lose, Zelnski is a ____ing stud! The right guy in the right place at the right time. Who could have imagined Ukraine would survive the initial invasion, let alone be holding their own a year later?

With his history in the media, Zelnski understands how powerful visuals can be to motivating Ukrainians and keeping morale high. Visiting Bakhmut, on the front line of the most active area of the war, in daylight, is a great way to respond to Putin's visit to the Russian occupied Ukrainian city of Mariupol in the middle of the night under cover of darkness, on 3/19.

Slava Ukraine!

you'll have to forgive me, Feral.

I've avoided bickering with you too in this thread, since you too at least haven't (yet) aggressively ridiculed me as a Russian spam bot lobster idiot, like several others have in this thread.

but, if I may ask you to try answering the same question I've asked everyone else:

why, exactly, do we think the same powers who derped us on the whole "WMDs in Iraq" thing are suddenly playing us straight about the whole Ukraine thing?

bonus points if you can articulate why they're not only playing us straight, but also the ones taking some unilateral moral high ground!

...after all, as even Trad himself just said, it's not like the people of eastern Ukraine actually matter...right?

[KUTradition]

fuck you

that’s not what i said at all

[ousdahl]

that hurts bro.

and to think, maybe comments like that could have been avoided, if you had just actually taken the time to elaborate upon your points when I asked.

cuuuuz now here I am all confused. You said the people of Eastern Ukraine are among details that don't actually matter, and I took that comment at face value. How foolish of me.

and, regardless of how you meant it, in the grand scheme of things, I think that comment CAN be taken at face value!

I think the US/NATO war machine at large actually cares about the people of Ukraine about as much as they actually cared about the people of Iraq.

That's to say, they don't care one bit.

[KUTradition]

context

[ousdahl]

well, I'd ask, but...

[TDub]

my god, you cant be like this in real life.

[ousdahl]

no, not really.

Then again, I am rarely told "fuck you" in real life, either.

(yall tourists not withstanding)

and besides, I don't know anyone in real life who is this proudly hawkish about the whole Ukraine war thing, so shamelessly aggressive toward anyone who says anything but, and so stubbornly ignorant to any sort of bigger context or objective criticism, no matter how valid that context or criticism may be.

tho, maybe I just run with a more progressive crowd in real life.

[TDub]

youre so morally superior. Hang a banner!

[KUTradition]

i wonder if he strains his eyes, looking so far down his nose

[ousdahl]

well, if you guys ARE gonna give me the moral high ground treatment, then that prob means you should stop giving it so unconditionally instead to the US, NATO, and their puppet Zelensky.

maybe we're finally getting somewhere!

[jhawks99]

Ousie, I know I've asked this before and I don't think I got an answer. Where do you want the Russian tanks to stop rolling.

No one here is hawkish but as we've seen on the not too distant past, appeasement doesn't work.

[Shirley]

...No one here is hawkish...

^^^

If Putin stops and goes home, the war ends.

If Ukraine stops, Ukraine ends.

[ousdahl]

Ousie, I know I've asked this before and I don't think I got an answer. Where do you want the Russian tanks to stop rolling.

No one here is hawkish but as we've seen on the not too distant past, appeasement doesn't work.

As I've responded before, I never wanted the Russian tanks to start rolling in the first place.

I think much of the fuss in this thread here is, whether Merica's own actions materially contributed to the escalation, and/or perpetuation, of the Russian tanks rolling.

Forgive me if the "hawkish" comment isn't the best way to describe how many in this thread not only refuse to even consider any criticism at all of Merica's own actions no matter how valid*, but also think any criticism is in itself is Russian propaganda. And, if none of you guys aren't hawks, boy do you enjoy giving the team sports hero treatment to Ukraine anyway.

I have this awful feeling the US is, at the very least, complicit, if not intentionally provoking this shit. And I'm afraid our own rhetoric and policies of escalation and perpetuation, and absence of any rhetoric of peace, is telling in itself.

I wish Merica would be the adults on the block, rather than the neighborhood tough guy who heard you're having a bonfire party so he shows up with a can of gasoline. Why's it have to be places like Israel, and China, fucking China, to be the places trying to propose a peace deal, rather than ourselves?

Why is it such a stretch - so taboo, even - to think the biggest military in the history of ever with some of the most aggressive foreign policies of all time, is also the biggest obstacle toward peace?

sorry, so many questions.

Here's one more:

would you care to elaborate on your appeasement comment?


(*ETA besides DC! but moot, cuz he's my sock)

[ousdahl]

...No one here is hawkish...

^^^

If Putin stops and goes home, the war ends.

If Ukraine stops, Ukraine ends.

but, that's the thing!

if the war keeps going, it's gonna leave Ukraine worse and worse anyway.

it's a rock and a hard place, I know.

But at some point, maybe it really is prudent to stop throwing gasoline on this bonfire, and just ask the grownups to go get the garden hose.

(btw that line is some standard issue cut-and-paste propaganda. You could apply 'If _____ ends then _____ ends' to pretty much any war any time anywhere)

[jhawks99]

We cannot let Ukraine get overrun. There's one aggressor here and it ain't Ukraine. It's pretty simple. Not much different than the 1st Iraq War.

[TDub]

youre gonna have fun in the trades.

[TDub]

We cannot let Ukraine get overrun. There's one aggressor here and it ain't Ukraine. It's pretty simple. Not much different than the 1st Iraq War.

one would think. Here we are 127 pages later....Though, to be fair, 125 of those pages are rehashing the same argument, asking the same questions, and ignoring all information to the contrary.

But then again. One doesn't think.

[jhawks99]

We cannot let Ukraine get overrun. There's one aggressor here and it ain't Ukraine. It's pretty simple. Not much different than the 1st Iraq War.

one would think. Here we are 127 pages later....Though, to be fair, 125 of those pages are rehashing the same argument, asking the same questions, and ignoring all information to the contrary.

But then again. One doesn't think.

I love me some Oussie. But he smoking some Illy weed here.

[ousdahl]

illy weed? that's harsh.... I WOULD say Colorado's weed is firmly superior, but considering how stoned illy's neighbor Michigan got me last summer visiting the parentals, it turns out that shit grows like weeds even in the midwest. But that's for another thread...

99, I've tried as many ways as I can to articulate maybe the Ukraine War is NOT "pretty simple," and there's more to it than "one aggressor." This is precisely the kind of thinking we should grow out of!

But, if you'd like to compare and contrast the 1st Iraq war, I'd be all ears.

Sorry to use the term again, but those sorts of absolutes like "we cannot let Ukraine get overrun" just seems hawkish...UNLESS it's appended with something like "...so we should be proactively striking a peace deal instead." Rather than...some tacit acceptance of, if not patriotic enthusiasm for, the escalate-and-perpetuate strategy?

TDub, I don't know how you can accuse me of not thinking when I'm the one providing a hell of a lot more thought and information about this than anyone else. I think you mean that more as a "read the room" tho, which might be a little more valid. Cuz yea, no one wants to think about this BUT me. And...well...a certain very few other they/them types...

And, serious question: when the only other person with any semblance of self-awareness of Merica's own shenanigans, much less criticism of as much, is my sock DC, then why didn't you guys give him 127 pages of hell about it too? I guess cuz he never even followed up, even when asked.

You guys remember August of 2021? When the only things we would have had to post in this thread were mostly along the lines of, "after 20 years of just kinda douching it up in Afghanistan, US hastily withdraws, leaving the mess of a country now in the hands of the Taliban." For a split second there, it seemed like Americans were actually leery of the war machine, right? So how, not 6 months later, did Americans collectively wanna get right back in bed with the war machine anyway?

for real, has it even occurred to you guys that you guys might be stumbling around piss-yer-pants drunk off state department koolaid yourselves? And that your views are grounded less in any sort of reality, and more in decades of Cold War propaganda conditioning?

I know I know, I should read the room, and just stop. I know! But, as long as you guys keep accusing ME of being the ignorant one, the one not thinking, the one avoiding the information presented, all while obliviously parroting UKRAINE GOOD, RUSSIA BAD, MERICA BEST, GO TEAM MICHHAWK, I don't know how you can expect me to just shut up.

[TDub]

Dude. Every single poster in this thread has provided sources, verified information, actual data.

You either don't read it, or choose to ignore it because it doesn't fit with your idealistic holier than thou, "im so progressive and so are my friends" mindset.


It is nearly identical to what has happened in the Covid thread. But, in there, you are all over chastising and making fun of those that "question" the data.

So, where are you? What world are you living in, what planet are you on? Planet Kush hasnt been great to you.