This Team

[ousdahl]

On offense, the ball sticks with Vick.

He gets possession and faces up his man for a few useless crossovers then either just passes it back out, or chucks a guarded jumper. He also often jogs to his spots instead of turning on the jets. (How does a player that quick NOT turn on the jets more often?)

And defensively the effort seems to collectively decline, while lapses increase.

Overall we seem to loose poise with Vick in more often than not.

[ousdahl]

Brannen Greene lolsigh

[pdub]

For all the Svi comparisons, you have zero numbers to back it up.
Just preference.
And Vick and Svi's conference numbers are comparable - Svi averaged 1.5 more PPG in his senior B12 season but also averaged more minutes. Per 40, Vick is averaging more PPG. And Vick still shooting a better % despite his struggles.

[ousdahl]

Sure a lot of it is eye test.

We played well with Svi. I don’t ever recall mass complaints about effort or attitude. And Svi never got in trouble.

With Lagerald, however...

[Deleted User 75]

Brannen Greene is such a disappointment that freaking Sam Cunliffe took his incredibly gorgeous girlfriend from him.

His fall from potential greatness has been especially saddening.

[ousdahl]

Of all the doghouse stays Lagerald has had, has there ever been one resulting from an argument with coach to make him a bigger part of the game?

Brannen also did a better job of playing within the offense, even though he wasn’t very good at much else.

Both are knuckleheads whom Self didn’t want back.

[jfish26]

For all the Svi comparisons, you have zero numbers to back it up.
Just preference.
And Vick and Svi's conference numbers are comparable - Svi averaged 1.5 more PPG in his senior B12 season but also averaged more minutes. Per 40, Vick is averaging more PPG. And Vick still shooting a better % despite his struggles.

I mean, I can cherry-pick stats too, in each case as seniors:

ORTG/DRTG

Svi: 115.9/106.0
Vick: 108.1/101.1

Win Shares/40

Svi: .137
Vick: .124

Turnover %

Svi: 11.5%
Vick: 18.1%

[pdub]

Win Shares/40 is like +/-.
Useless.
But you have a point with turnover %.

I would argue, again, Svi had Vonte, Malik ( AND Vick ) on that team to help space the floor, which we've already admitted is a problem.

And I wouldn't say Devon is nearly the facilitator as a senior Vonte.

[Deleted User 75]

Vonte is the most stupid nickname ever given to a player. Even more stupid than calling Frankamp "rafters".

[Soklous]

Felt like every shot Kstate made late last night, there was Vick on the replay, pretending he was closing out. After the shot was in. I don’t care what his 2pt,3pt, assists or how his shorts compare to other players. Our defense is the only identity our team can go with at this point.

His effort sucks shit, and every player on the team is affected by his role modeling.

[ousdahl]

I wonder how much Vick woulda played last night if not for injuries and foul trouble...

[pdub]

I wonder how much Vonte woulda played last night if not for the fact he's used his eligibility and signed with an agent and is playing in the NBA...

[NDballer13]

Felt like every shot Kstate made late last night, there was Vick on the replay, pretending he was closing out. After the shot was in. I don’t care what his 2pt,3pt, assists or how his shorts compare to other players. Our defense is the only identity our team can go with at this point.

His effort sucks shit, and every player on the team is affected by his role modeling.

Rather have him run away from the shooter, like he did for Wade in the first half. That way you don't even have to question if his head is in it, you just know. Guess why Wade missed those 15 footers in the first half, while made them in the 2nd. Probably nothing to do with Agbaji and Lightfoot being active and contesting them compared to Vick playing a zone like he's on a rec league team.

[PhDhawk]

I don't really have any way to defend Vick, nor do I want to. He played like shit last night, he's frequently played like shit lately.

But I don't get the Svi love affair. All the things that are frustrating about Vick were present for Svi as well. They are catch and shoot perimeter shooters who don't do much else. In spite of their size and apparent athletic gifts, they don't seem to do all things on the court that you'd think they should. They are inconsistent if not outright bad on defense (outside of the Duke E8 game for Svi). They are incredibly inconsistent in terms of production. And...since we're all obsessed with body language, Svi had the worst posture of any Self player.

And the argument that we played better with Svi and play poorly with Vick is silly...I mean Vick and Svi played together for 3 years.

I mean, if we're going to trade Vick in for someone else, why not someone who doesn't disappear for long stretches, gets after on D every night, can create shots and facilitate for other players...instead of basically a more tolerable version of the same player.

Unless that's the point of all this. It's like, 'as frustrating as Svi was in all the same ways, he's still less frustrating than Vick, so I'd take him back if I could.' You know, like, 'I went on a blind date with a woman with a horseface so bad it made Sarah Jessica Parker look attractive', kind of a way.

[CrimsonNBlue]

Svi got benched twice before February?

Also, ask the guy dying on Vick's hill why Svi was brought up. No idea.

[pdub]

Like I said, it's out of control.
( early on, he's an idiot and deserved to be pulled in the first half )
Watch these plays:



3:02 - Grimes doesn't deny entry, Vick is in a tough spot where Wade has positioned himself. Tries to alter shot.
3:07 - Vick has to decide between leaving his perimeter man or helping Grimes who is getting abused by Brown. Makes the right call - doesn't get his hand in there - maybe should have fouled.
3:13 - Brown just sinks a shot over Devon who is playing zone like he's on a rec league team
3:22 - They get Wade a good pass again, this is a good spot to break the zone, these unguarded spots, and Agbaji fails to contest, but Vick still does. I think this shot is probably the one ND remembers - but if you look, Agbaji is more to blame here.
3:27 - here's Charlie Moore late to his man
3:39 - this one is tough, and you could say Vick should have anticipated this better, but he was setting up to box out/stop Wade but Wade makes a good pass out - ball moves well - Vick closes out OK but could have been better.
3:55 - here's another Wade shot that has zero to do with Vick
4:40 - here's Dotson getting scored on from deep again
5:07 - I think this is what Sokulus is talking about and is probably where I say Vick was in the wrong ( and in a key moment ) - he should have trusted Dedric to cover here but Barry Brown was playing well so he over helped. But to say he didn't try and recover and was pretending to close out? Pause it at 5:07. Fake news.
5:11 - here's Diarra knocking over Dotson to seal the game

[pdub]

Svi got benched twice before February?

Also, ask the guy dying on Vick's hill why Svi was brought up. No idea.

Read the thread.

[pdub]

Overall point : Blaming Vick is this board's pastime. There are a number of other issues with this team.

Vick should be a 3rd option.
We lost our true 2nd option so now he has to be our 2nd option.
He's not playing as badly as a 2nd option as many of you make it out to be - his numbers compare to a 2nd option we had last just last season. And that 2nd option had a much better supporting cast.
We wouldn't be a better team without Vick as he has a skill ( perimeter shooting even though it's been cast as hollow or less useful ) that we are lacking.

[Soklous]

So you are saying Self got rid of Vick because of the board suggestion box?

[pdub]

I'm saying that you're blaming Batman & Robin on Arnold Schwarzenegger and ignoring Joel Schumacher, George Clooney, Uma Thurman and Chris O'Donnell, while expecting Arnold Schwarzenegger to get maybe a nod for Best Supporting Actor.

Meanwhile, you're reminiscing to Batman Forever, and dreaming of Tommy Lee Jones masterful performance and thinking he'd have done way better as Mr. Freeze.