huggs, goodness ...

[jfish26]

They don't need to own anything.
They certainly will be judged. And there will be negative consequences.
But they don't need to go out and say what you want them to say, "we are ok with bigotry as long as it's not on the radio and Huggins is too good a coach to let go," because they have a different opinion on how to handle the situation.

Actions speak louder than words. If they keep him, that action is telling you more than their words possibly could. Which, again, is fine. But miss me with the soft-focus bullshit.

Dude. His actions were literally words.

His action was the choice to say those words in public in 2023, including after his buddy lost his plum job over it three years ago. The university’s action will be how it responds.

[jfish26]

I don't think Thom Brennamen is the best person to teach why using terms like the terms they both used is hurtful.

While he certainly may have learned something AND changed his character it's a. also possible he didn't and b. likely better to talk with people who are directly affected.

Ok. I guess my opinion is just that, if this wasn’t truly who he is, I’d think his buddy losing a job and having to go through all of this might have scared him straight.

Again, just to keep this top of mind: I’m not saying he must be fired. I totally get why they’d keep him. I totally think it’s possible for his heart to change now.

I’m just not at all here for the laundering of that decision by way of forced, performative penance.

[Sparko]

The reality is Huggs has mostly lost it. He should have already retired. This is like a Woody Hayes deal at this point. WVU would do well to move on. Sadly. But it is time anyway.

[pdub]

"It's jail time or nothing," says Judge JFish Dredd, "Fines? Community service? Seminars and classes on betterment? Nothing else works. It's performative. Lock em up or just let em free."

"And just to be clear, I get why you'd just let him free. I never said the only answer is lock him up. Just that those are the only two meaningful options here."

[jfish26]

"It's jail time or nothing," says Judge JFish Dredd, "Fines? Community service? Seminars and classes on betterment? Nothing else works. It's performative. Lock em up or just let em free."

"And just to be clear, I get why you'd just let him free. I never said the only answer is lock him up. Just that those are the only two meaningful options here."

That’s not at all what I’ve said. Find a different straw man.

[pdub]

"...laundering of that decision by way of forced, performative penance."

Then please detail this out a bit more.

And then this please.

"What's giving me trouble here is that I think the situation actually is fairly binary. You DO fire him, or you DON'T fire him.

I acknowledge that there are all sorts of fig leaves you can add to NOT firing him (sensitivity training; community outreach; on and on). But those are window dressing, and everyone knows that."

And maybe this too.

"This isn't a behavior that needs to be changed (through punishment). This is something fundamental to the guy's character. He might not say "fag" on the radio again if this costs him a million bucks...but that's still who he'll be."

[jfish26]

"...laundering of that decision by way of forced, performative penance."

Then please detail this out a bit more.

And then this please.

"What's giving me trouble here is that I think the situation actually is fairly binary. You DO fire him, or you DON'T fire him.

I acknowledge that there are all sorts of fig leaves you can add to NOT firing him (sensitivity training; community outreach; on and on). But those are window dressing, and everyone knows that."

And maybe this too.

[b"This isn't a behavior that needs to be changed (through punishment). This is something fundamental to the guy's character. He might not say "fag" on the radio again if this costs him a million bucks...but that's still who he'll be."[/b]

I’m not sure what you’re asking for.

[pdub]

You do fire him or you don't fire him.
The rest is window dressing -- i.e. useless.
His behavior can't be changed. His character can't be changed.

This is how I interpret the bolded quotes.

[jfish26]

You do fire him or you don't fire him.
The rest is window dressing -- i.e. useless.
His behavior can't be changed. His character can't be changed.

This is how I interpret the bolded quotes.

I’ve said the behavior can change. That’s easy!

I’ve also said his heart can change. That’s a lot harder!

But neither of those things require them to continue to employ him as the head basketball coach.

If they continue to employ him as the head basketball coach, it’s because the juice is worth the squeeze.

That’s it.

[pdub]

"...it’s because the juice is worth the squeeze"

Likely yes.
But perhaps they also think he can learn from this and become a better person.

[jfish26]

"...it’s because the juice is worth the squeeze"

Likely yes.
But perhaps they also think he can learn from this and become a better person.

Maybe he can. But he can also very much do that while you’re NOT paying him millions of bucks to win basketball games.

So if you continue to pay him, just call the spade a spade: him continuing to win basketball games is the important part.

[pdub]

Alright.
Then you'll need to answer to surly.

KU needs to come out and say, "yea, Bill Self knew, we all knew. But the most important part here is winning."

As long as they own it.

[jfish26]

Alright.
Then you'll need to answer to surly.

Eh, no I don’t. I don’t see eye to eye with you on this or some other things, but I’ve seen enough to know that you’re at least coming at this from a place of good faith. Interloping on other schools’ boards doesn’t get me there.

[jfish26]

Alright.
Then you'll need to answer to surly.

KU needs to come out and say, "yea, Bill Self knew, we all knew. But the most important part here is winning."

As long as they own it.

Well I’d say that’s PRECISELY what we’ve done. And I’m good with it.

[pdub]

No.
To do so ( to own it to the level I think you want WVU to 'own' Huggins ) they would have to say, "we all knew but what are you going to do about it. We just want to win."
Instead they are hush hush with a good amount of deny and delay and Adidas did it but also we'll sue you if you fuck with us too much.

[jfish26]

No.
To do so they would have to say, "we all knew but what are you going to do about it."
Instead they are hush hush with a good amount of deny and delay and Adidas did it but also we'll sue you if you fuck with us too much.

Eh whatever.

What we’ve DONE says we’re ok with what Bill has or hasn’t done. That’s what we should have to stand behind.

[pdub]

OK so now the things that WVU has done to Huggins actually might help him change and firing him was not the only option but WVU has to just say publicly ( I guess in a presser or something? ), "We just want to win so that's why we didn't fire Bob Huggins" in order to...I'm not sure...just be real?

[jfish26]

OK so now the things that WVU has done to Huggins actually might help him change and firing him was not the only option but WVU has to just say publicly ( I guess in a presser or something? ), "We just want to win so that's why we didn't fire Bob Huggins" in order to...I'm not sure...just be real?

I’m not expecting them to say, or even asking them to say, anything of the sort. All I’m saying is that what they say - and the list of things they’ll make him do - doesn’t really affect how their actions should be interpreted.

They’re ok keeping a him around, despite his personal ugliness, because he wins basketball games. That’s a choice, and not an unreasonable one.

[pdub]

OK, I am on bored with all that ( in terms of agreement of WVU's 'brand' shall we say in this scenario ).
DC would even say that's reasonable.

[DCHawk1]

the irony here is pretty thick. you know every school in the country was saying the same thing about ku and bill self not long ago considering the fbi matter. were you?

wvu made a reasonable choice. you may or may not like it. but it was consistent with their values. just as ku did with bill self when everyone else said he should be canned.

Apples and hand grenades.

Speaking of words that we are not allowed to use in polite society any longer...Timmuh makes me t5hink of a few...