Let’s have a war!

[ousdahl]

I wonder what the correlation is like between MIC price gouging and the murdering of innocents

[KUTradition]

i’d rather worry about the bookkeeping at a time when innocents aren’t being murdered, personally

When, exactly, will that be?

it should have been going on all along, quite honestly

but, crowing about it now and using the apparent lack of bookkeeping as some justification to halt support seems a bit cut-off-nose-to-spite-face-ish

[TDub]

I wonder what the correlation is like between MIC price gouging and the murdering of innocents

if we're doing correlations and crossovers....I wonder what the venn diagram looks like between Phish jam band participants and Putin Apologists.

[KUTradition]

or, like, putin apologists and kinds of social media use and stuff

[ousdahl]

The fact you guys still think I’m a Putin apologist just seems sillier and sillier.

I’d suggest attempting a discussion about being able to distinguish valid objective criticism of our own foreign policy, with just knee-jerk dismissing any and all valid objective criticism as “bad guy apologist”

But I already tried that, and look how it went.

[KUTradition]

The fact you guys still think I’m a Putin apologist just seems sillier and sillier.

I’d suggest attempting a discussion about being able to distinguish valid objective criticism of our own foreign policy, with just knee-jerk dismissing any and all valid objective criticism as “bad guy apologist”

But I already tried that, and look how it went.

my issue with this discussion is that you have erred on the side of conflating US foreign policy, generally, with the Ukraine situation (i’m sure you’d disagree with that characterization, but whatever)

two things can (and i think are) both true:

1) the US MIC and political enablers have done lots of shitty things under false pretenses

2) Ukraine did nothing to provoke a russian invasion other than want democracy, and generally deserves the support of the international community to defend their country from invaders

i asked both you and DC to explain the little cartoon meme he posted comparing this war to Afghanistan and Iraq, and who specifically is “lying” in each scenario. i got nothing in return (because it’s a lazy, inaccurate comparison, imo)

you’re free to whatever opinion you’d like, but as with most things, i’m generally going to trust the opinions of people much more informed on a given subject than i…in this case, the author of the article i just posted and folks like Fiona Hill, who’ve spent the better parts of their careers studying the backdrops to this conflict

[Sparko]

Trad. Awesome.

[ousdahl]

I’ll respond more thoroughly as soon as I get a little more time, but for now…

Trad, could you please show your work?

Please provide evidence to indicate

a. Ukraine did nothing to provoke
b. only wants democracy, and
c. deserves the support of the international community, whoever that may be

My concern is that all that may be false pretenses, too

In other words, how are you so sure things 1 and 2 really are compatible?

and, fwiw, I really want them to be, too

[TDub]

can you show your fucking work for once? Jesus christ.

take another shot of stoli and ask your endless string of open ended,
nonsensical, non linear questions at your next goal post moving circle jerk session/putin fellating session.

[KUTradition]

Ousie, here’s my work:

viewtopic.php?t=4197&sid=b8c0c6e6f2eb6b ... b9ca8de8f7

go back and read all the links i’ve provided, since it’s obvious you didn’t read them the first time through

i’ve tried my best to provide sources for ALL of my suppositions and opinions - i’m not going to do it again, only to be right back in the same place

[Shirley]

can you show your fucking work for once? Jesus christ.

take another shot of stoli and ask your endless string of open ended,
nonsensical, non linear questions at your next goal post moving circle jerk session/putin fellating session.

^^^

Yeah, the "I'm just askin'" schtick got old quickly upon my return, and leaves me with no desire to engage.

[ousdahl]

Dangit.

I almost added something about how those assertions may be difficult to demonstrate.

But, here’s the thing - I HAVE read the work you’ve shown. And the work you’ve shown has been mostly the same state department rhetoric like “it’s about nothing more than freedom and democracy, simple as that, to even discuss the word “provoke” is russian propaganda, this is a simple battle of good versus evil, it’s as simple as that, global politics is simple, and the only solution to war is more war, war war war, and the US’s own track record of false pretensescouldn’t possibly matter here, so keep flooding the place with weapons, and Let’s Have A War!”

In contrast, I’ve asserted things like, shouldn’t we at least think twice about flooding the place with weapons when Ukraine’s less some freedom-loving democracy and more a buncha right wing militant nationalists?

Then I show evidence of Nazis in Ukraine, from sources like the New York Times* and NATO, and Zelensky himself, despite sources like the New York Times and NATO and Zelensky himself also trying to claim Nazis are just more Russian propaganda.

But, I failed to respond to your links in a way you felt appropriate, forgive me. Lemme o back and start with your most recent opinion piece from that imperial professor dood, which itself was a rebuttal to the NYT ad from buncha U.S. military types that I posted….



*actually, that NYT evidence was actually posted by DCHawk1…tho in doing so he somehow also managed to avoid being labeled a Russian spambot.

[jfish26]

This is remarkable video.

[twocoach]

This is remarkable video.

I disagreed with a huge amount of policies that McCain backed but he was an honorable man who was wise, who studied the topics that he was responsible for and who acted in what he thought was the best interest of the United States. It's clear why Trump had so much disdain for him.

[KUTradition]

that imperial professor dood

and i’m supposed to take you seriously?

jfc

[ousdahl]

https://thehill.com/opinion/internation ... raine/amp/

Without going TLDR dissecting every single little point, I just don’t know how credible an opinion piece can be when one of its biggest moves is to repeatedly compare the boogeyman in question to literal Hitler. That’s like, meme-level understanding, and not something I’d expect from someone who’s otherwise supposed to be a professor in the relevant field.

And, while he gets into certain points, he seems to tapdance around the bigger question of whether NATO’s own actions (of generally expanding NATO further and further eastward, and more specifically arming a buncha militant nationalists on the boogeyman in question’s doorstep) could possibly have anything to do with this.

He tries for these blanket statements like “Ukraine posed no threat to Russia,” and tries to suggest the Ukraine never harbored bad feelings toward Russia until only very recently. (Seriously? They’ve been bickering for centuries)

And, this whopper: “… the advertisement’s call for “a meaningful and genuine commitment to diplomacy, specifically an immediate ceasefire and negotiations without any disqualifying or prohibitive preconditions” sounds hopelessly naïve, even dangerous.”

Seriously?!?!?! Read that again. The dangerous thing is a ceasefire? Because war is peace, and two plus two equals five.

The thing is, if the US or NATO or anyone else DOES care about the people of Ukraine, we should be trying every angle possible to negotiate a ceasefire, rather than insisting diplomacy isn’t worth trying, and stubbornly doubling down on more guns, more bombs, more war…(furnished by price-gouging war profiteers…paid for by you and me…)

I can go on, if you’d like.

But, I’d first like to ask: did you read the NYT ad I posted? Would you like to offer your reaction, please?

[ousdahl]

that imperial professor dood

and i’m supposed to take you seriously?

jfc

Alexander J. Motyl is a professor of political science at Rutgers University-Newark. A specialist on Ukraine, Russia and the USSR, and on nationalism, revolutions, empires and theory, he is the author of 10 books of nonfiction, as well as “Imperial Ends: The Decay, Collapse, and Revival of Empires” and “Why Empires Reemerge: Imperial Collapse and Imperial Revival in Comparative Perspective.”

But, sorry if “imperial professor dood” wasn’t a good way to refer to him.

Regarding your take to listen to the opinions of folks who know more about such things, I think he counts.

Do you think the US military folks who signed the NYT ad count?

[ousdahl]

can you show your fucking work for once? Jesus christ.

take another shot of stoli and ask your endless string of open ended,
nonsensical, non linear questions at your next goal post moving circle jerk session/putin fellating session.

^^^

Yeah, the "I'm just askin'" schtick got old quickly upon my return, and leaves me with no desire to engage.

The “I’m aware the US war machine has a long sad history of false pretenses and other such bullshit, but they’re like totally playing us straight this time about Ukraine!” schtick got old quickly for me, too.

[KUTradition]

Do you think the US military folks who signed the NYT ad count?

in a general sense, sure

do they have the bonafides that would make them experts in this particular arena?

how about you answer my question about how Ukraine is similar to Afghanistan/Iraq and who exactly is doing the lying/misleading?

i’m a little sick of answering your questions and not having the same done in return

[KUTradition]

and your complete misrepresentation about the nazi issue is hilariously sad

nobody here claimed that nazis didn’t exist in Ukrainian ranks

data was provided about the actual scale of the nazi problem (relatively small and isolated), but you persist, even today, in holding it up as some kind of justification for not providing assistance (er go, allowing putin to do his thing)

you said more about the supposed nazi problem in Ukraine than i think you ever have about the similar issue within our own military and law enforcement

it’s an odd fascination