Let’s have a war!

[ousdahl]

and just so we’re clear, i’m not happy with the way the western allies have handled their support

my brother in Christ, then what do we even have to bicker about here?

i’m personally of the opinion that all sanctions possible should’ve come down like a hammer from the get-go. i don’t know how feasible that would’ve been, but that’s my feeling

aren't sanctions often criticized on a number of levels, tho? They may negatively affect the lives of ordinary people, more so than they negatively affect the adversarial state's war efforts. And, I don't have the article in front of me right now, but I swear I saw headlines like, "European sanctions on Russian oil means not that Europe is no longer buying Russian oil, but more that Europe is buying Russian oil but now at a markup after it's funneled through places like India instead. Or was it Saudi Arabia? Or both? Or was that just more Russian propaganda? I'll have to google that one.

and, as i’ve said before both here and in other threads, i’m not comfortable with our level of military spending to the detriment of other priorities (namely, environment, healthcare, and education).

talk dirty to Qusdahl!

at the same time, though, the US getting out of the MIC business would leave a vacuum, with no guarantees on who would fill it. i prefer the world order with the US on top, rather than run the risk of it being china or russia

oh, so I guess you DON'T like the idea of China or Russia trying to militarily corner us on some global level?

cuz apparently they don't like the idea of us doing it to them, either...not that the US possesses the collective awareness to realize that.

and, I don't mean that as trying to be some apologist for Russia, nor China!

But, now I'm really wondering about this vacuum you speak of.

[ousdahl]

see, I think there's some confusion around whether I'm proven wrong; or whether I try to discuss some point and, without even attempting to discuss, get replies like "what are we discussing?" or "Q shouts silly things"

but, please, prove me wrong!

TDub, what's your reaction to that "shoe on the other foot" hypothetical illustration?

Ok. But what is the actual question you’re asking?

Fish, you're one of my favorite posters. You're a lot brighter, and a lot more reasonable than me. So this one gave me pause.

at face value, the actual question I'm asking is, what's your reaction to that "shoe on the other foot" hypothetical illustration?

But, replying to a post about "what are we even discussing?" sorts of replies with a "what's the actual question you're asking?" just seems...either way meta, and/or actually some 5D chess sorta point that I'm missing.

If I'm dumb - and I probably am! - please do explain. I value your opinion, JFish.

and, fwiw, thanks for your levelheadedness on the boreds, generally. You're an example of the poster I wanna be.

...jk LOL the poster I really wanna be is blackmild.

(sorry, just couldn't go on a diatribe this wordy without a little comic relief)

[Mjl]

IMO, allowing Putin to succeed in Ukraine would immediately create an existential threat for a number of other countries

Domino Theory

At what point should someone intervene? They annexed South Ossetia, Abkhazia, Crimea, now Donbas.

[KUTradition]

kumbaya

[ousdahl]

at what point should someone intervene?




and, as if the US policy has NOT been to intervene in Ukraine for decades either way

[ousdahl]

tho, I'm still curious to hear DC's take, as usual.

in the meantime, let's tune into another episode of, "Straight From Kremlin's Own Mouth."

today's broadcast includes more shameless Putin-parroting propaganda from yet another notorious Russian spambot:

Henry Kissinger



(to be fair, I haven't/can't read the actual WSJ article, as I don't wanna pay for that shit, so yea maybe really is just more Russian propaganda...)

[ousdahl]

So one of the counterpoints folks have offered to the whole Ukraine having a nazi problem thing is, but Russia has a nazi problem too. Right?

Right. We’ve been over that.

But something we haven’t been over is, who’s among the biggest supporters of Russian nazis?

the Ukrainian government.



For Ukraine military, far-right Russian volunteers make for worrisome allies

but there was a discordant note that emerged as clearly as the neo-Nazi Black Sun patch on the uniform of one of the soldiers: Kapustin and prominent members of the armed group he leads, the Russian Volunteer Corps, openly espouse far-right views. In fact, German officials and humanitarian groups, including the Anti-Defamation League, have identified Kapustin as a neo-Nazi.
…
The fact that the group has garnered attention for its operation and revived coverage of the group’s ties to neo-Nazis is an awkward development for Ukraine’s government, particularly since President Vladimir Putin of Russia has justified his invasion on the false claim of fighting neo-Nazis and made it a regular theme of Kremlin propaganda.
…
In reality, far-right groups in Ukraine are a small minority, and Ukraine has denied any involvement in the Russian Volunteer Corps or any role in fighting on the Russian side of the border. But Kapustin said that his group “definitely got a lot of encouragement” from Ukrainian authorities.
…
Andriy Chernyak, a representative of Ukraine’s military intelligence service, defended Kyiv’s willingness to allow the group to fight on its behalf.

“Ukraine definitely supports all those who are ready to fight the Putin regime,” he said, adding: “People came to Ukraine and said that they want to help us to fight Putin’s regime, so of course we let them, same as many other people from foreign countries.”

https://www.seattletimes.com/nation-wor ... ies/?amp=1

…so this may be analogous to if like the potus was encouraging Proud Boys, right?

“stand down and stand by”

[jfish26]

see, I think there's some confusion around whether I'm proven wrong; or whether I try to discuss some point and, without even attempting to discuss, get replies like "what are we discussing?" or "Q shouts silly things"

but, please, prove me wrong!

TDub, what's your reaction to that "shoe on the other foot" hypothetical illustration?

Ok. But what is the actual question you’re asking?

Fish, you're one of my favorite posters. You're a lot brighter, and a lot more reasonable than me. So this one gave me pause.

at face value, the actual question I'm asking is, what's your reaction to that "shoe on the other foot" hypothetical illustration?

But, replying to a post about "what are we even discussing?" sorts of replies with a "what's the actual question you're asking?" just seems...either way meta, and/or actually some 5D chess sorta point that I'm missing.

If I'm dumb - and I probably am! - please do explain. I value your opinion, JFish.

and, fwiw, thanks for your levelheadedness on the boreds, generally. You're an example of the poster I wanna be.

...jk LOL the poster I really wanna be is blackmild.

(sorry, just couldn't go on a diatribe this wordy without a little comic relief)

I'm not trying to be snarky - I genuinely don't know what you're trying to say with the "shoe on the other foot" Canada thing.

[ousdahl]

ah.

well, let me try to get to what I'm trying to say by, if I may, rhetorically asking you:

what do you think WOULD happen if Russia established its military in Canada? How would the U.S. react?

Or, for that matter, what would happen and how do you think the U.S. would react if Russia established its military in Canada, and Mexico, and Cuba too?

[jfish26]

ah.

well, let me try to get to what I'm trying to say by, if I may, rhetorically asking you:

what do you think WOULD happen if Russia established its military in Canada? How would the U.S. react?

Or, for that matter, what would happen and how do you think the U.S. would react if Russia established its military in Canada, and Mexico, and Cuba too?

The short answer is that we do lots and lots of things to make sure we have all the authority and leverage we need to ensure something like that will never happen; it starts with ensuring that Mexico and Canada need us in order to maintain and grow their part of the pie.

[ousdahl]

Dang, that’s a good answer, fish.

All I’m saying is, I think it’s hypocritical as fuck for the US to push our military right up to Russia’s doorstep, then insist on pretending that has nothing to do with anything when Russia pushes back.

Again, NOT THAT IT JUSTIFIES RUSSIAN MILITANCY!

But it doesn’t justify the US militancy either.

It’s “do as I say not as I do” vibes.

[ousdahl]

and the whole…um…this angle…

Nazi Symbols on Ukraine’s Front Lines Highlight Thorny Issues of History

Troops’ use of patches bearing Nazi emblems risks fueling Russian propaganda and spreading imagery that the West has spent a half-century trying to eliminate.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/05/worl ... raine.html

New York Times once again publishing Nazis in Ukraine….but this time it’s saying it out loud and everything!

They even mention journalists deceiving their audience about it!

And, holy shit, the way they present the whole Nazis in Ukraine thing as bad, but not cuz Nazis are bad, but just cuz it makes for bad propaganda….woof!

[jfish26]

Dang, that’s a good answer, fish.

All I’m saying is, I think it’s hypocritical as fuck for the US to push our military right up to Russia’s doorstep, then insist on pretending that has nothing to do with anything when Russia pushes back.

Again, NOT THAT IT JUSTIFIES RUSSIAN MILITANCY!

But it doesn’t justify the US militancy either.

It’s “do as I say not as I do” vibes.

This comes off as a both sidesy false equivalency to me. By no means would I say we've always avoided military adventurism (or even quasi-colonialism), but...Russia is actively taking other sovereign nation's land by conventional force. We're not doing, and have not for (at least) a very very very very very long time done, anything remotely similar.

Are Canada and Mexico worried about our tanks rolling in? No.

Not the the same story in Eastern/Central Europe, vis a vis Russia.

[KUTradition]

you’re wasting your energy, Fish

[ousdahl]

Respectfully, I’m just not sure how accurate fish’s assertions are.

There are many many examples besides even Ukraine, but let’s focus on Ukraine for now.

Cuz speaking of sovereign nations, and conventional force, holy shit this article:

https://www.politico.eu/article/ukraine ... fears/amp/

“This was followed by a series of police raids at our head office and our subsidiaries,” Kiryanova explained. Ukraine’s security services seized $96 million in assets, and the deeds to 40 companies and 30 natural gas wells. “The property of pro-Russian oligarch Vadym Novynskyi, who is involved in aiding the aggressor country, was seized,” the SBU announced in a statement. Smart Holding has donated more than $20 million to war-related humanitarian causes.

Yet, hours before the raids, the company was approached with a fire-sale buyout offer for its natural gas interests from foreign investors — British and American — who have no history in the energy sector. They said they’d face no problems, as “they would be able to resolve any issues with the office of Ukraine’s President.” The offer — a third of what the businesses are worth — was declined.

- US/UK evil rich people with connections to Zelensky’s office offer to buy Ukrainian company for 1/3 its value
- owner declines
- cops show up and seize the company

Holy shit!

[KUTradition]

know where Norway is?

know that they literally share a border with russia?

know that they were literally a founding member of NATO?

don’t bother responding…i just wanted to remind you of those facts

[ousdahl]

Yea. I’m aware of Norway, where it is, and their status with nato, tho thanks for the reminder.

If I may ask, what relevance is Norway to the last two articles I posted?

What’s Norway have to do with Nazis in Ukraine, or Ukrainian authorities raiding Ukrainian businesses that won’t sell to US/UK investors for pennies on the dollar?

[TDub]

Respectfully, I’m just not sure how accurate fish’s assertions are.

There are many many examples besides even Ukraine, but let’s focus on Ukraine for now.

Cuz speaking of sovereign nations, and conventional force, holy shit this article:

https://www.politico.eu/article/ukraine ... fears/amp/

“This was followed by a series of police raids at our head office and our subsidiaries,” Kiryanova explained. Ukraine’s security services seized $96 million in assets, and the deeds to 40 companies and 30 natural gas wells. “The property of pro-Russian oligarch Vadym Novynskyi, who is involved in aiding the aggressor country, was seized,” the SBU announced in a statement. Smart Holding has donated more than $20 million to war-related humanitarian causes.

Yet, hours before the raids, the company was approached with a fire-sale buyout offer for its natural gas interests from foreign investors — British and American — who have no history in the energy sector. They said they’d face no problems, as “they would be able to resolve any issues with the office of Ukraine’s President.” The offer — a third of what the businesses are worth — was declined.

- US/UK evil rich people with connections to Zelensky’s office offer to buy Ukrainian company for 1/3 its value
- owner declines
- cops show up and seize the company

Holy shit!

respectfully....youre fucking delusional if you cant see the point of fish's post.

[TDub]

I cannot believe the United States caused the Russians to blow up the hydroelectric dam. Can't wait to hear Q spin this one.

Devastating to the region, really really not good....and not an action you would take if you wanted to liberate the people or even take the land....purely a destroy and cause chaos move. Provided water, irrigation and power to the whole region.....oh, it also provided the water to cool the nearby nuclear reactor. terrific....

[jfish26]

I cannot believe the United States caused the Russians to blow up the hydroelectric dam. Can't wait to hear Q spin this one.

Devastating to the region, really really not good....and not an action you would take if you wanted to liberate the people or even take the land....purely a destroy and cause chaos move. Provided water, irrigation and power to the whole region.....oh, it also provided the water to cool the nearby nuclear reactor. terrific....

I read it as an act of desperation. I think Russia is fairly on the ropes, and a successful Ukraine counteroffensive might well be the state of the end of the war.